this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2024
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We have no post supporting capitalism. The whole server is critizing capitalism and supporting social and environnemental project.
That is terrific, I'm glad that you are yourself anti-capitalist. I don't think the whole jlai.lu instance is, though, and at least one mod is apparently quite conservative.
If you're talking about me, that's kind of a funny way to see it I guess, albeit pretty dumb and most likely lacking in political history for it to be your guess.
The whole instance is not anti capitalistic but many of the most active users are and we have dedicated leftist and pro-tolerance communities. The instance is overtly antifascist, the few doubtful users that posted were kicked out promptly.
The feeling is also anti-authoritarian so tankies wouldn't feel at ease, but I dont think they'd be kicked out unless blatantly promoting imperialist / authoritarian agendas.
Well, i'm affraid language barriere doesn't help...and there is some part of misunderstanding and french's culture is different 😟
When we talk about PCC or the Kremlin, we are mainly critizing imperialism. We do make a clear line between communism and imperialism.
We also critize France, and our actions to change it is currently repressed by the police. We document it there. I don't read it, it depress me a lot and i have to care about myself.
https://jlai.lu/c/quefaitlapolice?
You can also check those communities :
You can also check @[email protected] posts.
He has expressed his point of view about hexbear but that doesn't represent our opinion until proven otherwise.
The first thing we (anyone, everyone not necessary the mod/admin team) do is talking to people (even modo, admin are included and can be demoted anytime) and pointing out what's wrong.
That's the first thing we did. We asked for source and pointed out it's normal that you would react here.
Then, we ask them to edit their post as a way to apologize.
Non, ils mentionnent aussi un commentaire qu'OP a eu sur le conflit en Ukraine
Oui, plus ou moins. Si on lit la définition de wikipédia : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
On peut faire le parralèles avec les l'islamogauchisme utilisé par la droite contre la FI pour la qualifier d'extreme.
Après, OP a apporté des précisions avec des liens.
C'est un très bon résumé, leur raisonnement est logique comme tu l'as dit.
Pour islamogauchisme je veux bien des sources puisque pour le moment j'ai pas d'exemples qui me vient en tete. l'usage d'islamogauchisme remonte bien avant que ce soit popularisé par la droite. Des chercheurs et chercheuses du CNRS sont remonté à la source de ce terme et l'ont retrouvé dans un post sur X qui appartenait à un russe. De là, iels en ont déduit que c'était une ferme à troll :
It's great you have that perspective on it individually. You individually might be totally fine. I ask you the same question though: look at the company you keep. One of your mods, a full 1/8th of your monthly userbase, just used tankie as a slur. Against a forum that's... what? Too antizionist? Too antiracist? Too anti-imperialist? Too pro-LGBT? I still don't know either of their specific ideological disagreements with Hexbear and don't care. If I were you I'd be sceptical of people who use words the right-wing uses to describe the same enemies the right-wing has. A nebulous term like tankie can be used to condemn anyone. An out-group enemy that only exists through conspiracy theories can be used to condemn anyone. Neither can be specifically defined in the same way me using "liberal" or "fascist" as an in-group enemy can be. If you feel genuinely committed to something as radical as environmentalism, you're too radical for that forum and you'll be the tankie or the sneaky Asian spy when they run out of more radical candidates. I wouldn't want to be on Hexbear if people used language like that unironically.
How did you come to that number? Our total monthly userbase is 220 users per month for the instance.
I'm just going off the number on the sidebar when I'm viewing your instance through this one. Now it's diluted by this thread and it says 55 users/month, but when I first saw the thread it was at 8/month. Lemmy can be weird about syncing with other things so it might be that: https://i.imgur.com/ODSkS0n.png .
Yeah those counters are usually quite inaccurate, you always have to check on the source instance to be sure.
May i convaince you otherwise about this mod ? Here is Anansi (sysop) answer to TheFirish :
We had another post about defederating Hexbear long before, almost one year ago where TGhost, thank to her, talked to anansi and convainced him to keep the federation with hexbear.
If you can comment here, and see our posts that's due to @anansi's decision and @TGhost's argument.
Currently, in this thread, heated arguments, meme, trolling, wich are spreading to the whole lemmyverse aren't helping us. They are a fun thing to do but it often end up badly.
Anyway, i hope that translation and this historical decisions/fact from jlai.lu, can give you a new perspective on jlai.lu and anansi.
You can trust us and let us handle the situation.
Attention Snoopy, méfie-toi de nous, on est anti activisme environnemental 😆
I'm not saying you're anti-environmentalists. Plenty of liberals are environmentalists. I'm saying that I've seen two users, including a mod, use undefinable words that have one rhetorical purpose. You use a word like "tankie" or an idea like "all my enemies are foreign spies" to set a limit on dissent. I could ask that user what the specific line between a tankie and non-tankie is, but if that answer even makes sense then it sets a firm limit on how radical someone can be. I'm an eco-Marxist, I study it as closely as I can and work practically as one, the books on my shelf are mostly about what I'd consider part of an eco-Marxist critique. I understand environmentalism as a complex intersectional war of liberation. What part of that makes me a tankie versus the acceptable position? If there's preemptive surrender to power, if some part of that intersectional struggle is unacceptable or some act or idea or theorist is too far, I don't care how many paintings you've splashed with soup today.
Meh, I use tanky to differentiate between leftists and people that cosplay as leftist while excusing genocide and human rights violation whenever it's their flavor of autocrat doing it, not really as an anti-communist word since nobody uses it like that in the first place.
No, it sets a limit on how much you accept your fellow comrades from being used as a stepping tool by an authoritarian regime/dictator to be able to call yourself "communist", while ending up in state capitalism anyway.
I may concede that from my years on hexbear, I associate most participants to this kind of communism flavor by default, which may not be your case, but this thread did not really start in good faith, so why would I.
Democrats?
Yes, but not only.
So close to understand my obvious point, you can do it!
Honest question: what do you think of the concept of atrocity propaganda?
When I see the U.S. making claims about one of its enemies doing atrocities, I'm going to be skeptical, because they've told that exact sort of lie for the exact same reason plenty of times before.
I know it exists and is pretty common in disinformation and propaganda, which is why I wait for international organizations, independent reporters and numerous testimonies before reaching for conclusions.
I also like to consider that when these are the same people and organizations that are making Israel actions public and asking for genocide recognition, than the ones that are doing the same with the Uyghurs genocide for like a decade or two now, they are not Schrodinger propagandists that act at the same time against and for the interests of the US and its imperialists friends (France included).
When I see people making claims that a genocide is not happening when there is an egregious amount of evidences already, using the shittiest wiki entry I've ever seen somewhere in this thread, written by a chinese national from a chinese IP (the edit log is public), with half of the entry having no reference, the other one having chinese state media and youtube videos as source, I'm not only going to be skeptical, but I'll also consider that you'll end up with all the other genocide deniers in history. One of your mate cited Zenz as a gotcha when this shit is known since the 50's and was even a point of contention between the PRC and the Soviets.
Also, as a last note, it doesn't even make sense that the Uyghur genocide would be used as atrocity propaganda simply because of the fact that nobody in the West cares about chineses, muslims and even less about chinese muslims. What would be the point?
In Kuweit and Iraq, it was used to make direct intervention in the country "acceptable" or even positively viewed by the mass. Here, the goal is what? To have sanctions upon China that would cripple only the western economy?
I'll end on a personal note tangentially related that is kind of my conclusion for this whole thread:
Seing all of you parading as "true" leftists while spouting the chinese equivalent of hasbara and not even seing the irony in this makes me hate you even more that shitlibs, and that's even before even considering the history and damage that tankies have done to the worldwide leftist and especially revolutionary movement for the last century.
You'll take whatever is thrown in front of you that agrees with you as proof that you're right rather that actually challenging your views, and for what? Licking the boots of yet another authoritarian regime with state capitalism and a history of purging minorities and commonly violating human rights?
The U.N. does not believe there was a genocide in Xinjiang:
Obviously there is room for criticizing China here -- credible allegations of torture, ill-treatment, and discrimination should be taken seriously and stopped if those allegations are substantiated. But credible allegations of this nature are on another planet from irrefutable proof of an actual genocide, like we're seeing in Gaza. The actual report does not describe even allegations of genocide and does not use the word itself.
Why do you disbelieve the U.N. here?
I don't know about other countries, but I could link to 100 U.S.-based articles in the past few years fearmongering about China. Trump railed against China even before Covid, Covid spawned all sorts of anti-Chinese xenophobia and conspiracy theories, Biden made a big deal out of having the military shoot down a Chinese weather balloon that strayed over the U.S., etc.
China is an enormous economic competitor with nukes that is also communist. It is very much a target of the U.S. empire.
Are you for real?
Did you read the report you linked? Is your argument truly that it's ok because the word genocide was not employed and it's just sparkly ethnic cleansing and crime against humanity?
This is not even talking about the forced erasure of the Uyghur by "importation" of Hans chinese in the province and forced marriage that, once again, was known and criticized even by the Soviets since the 50's.
Yeah, and that's achieving what exactly? For an alleged ML you're kind of ignoring the material view of this.
That serves absolutely no purpose for the US, the Xinjiang region provides half of the materials needed for electronics in the world, on which the US economy and power heavily relies on.
"communist" yeah right lol, their flag is red I guess yeah
It's not even really a target for the US empire since they decided to offshore all their production there. They're entirely dependent on them, and financing Chinese economical imperialism in Africa and South America indirectly.
Did you? It contains zero allegations of ethnic cleansing, either.
Torturing prisoners -- something the vast majority of countries that imprison people do -- is a crime against humanity, but there's a vast gulf between that and genocide. And that's setting aside the difference between a credible accusation (what the U.N. found in China) and a mountain of irrefutable evidence (what we have in Gaza).
To analogize, you're basically treating a credible accusation of assault as equivalent to being caught on camera committing multiple homicides. Not the same crime, not the same amount of evidence.
You're just flat-out wrong, there's not even any arguing it. Here's a mountain of fearmongering about China, anyway. I'll also refer you to the recent presidential and VP debates.
Imagine resorting to moral relativism and legalism to defend crimes against humanity.
Worst than shitlibs and fascists loving centroids.
Fuck all the way off. You're making up shit and getting mad at it because you can't address my actual point.
I said:
The point is that allegations about mistreating prisoners =/= concrete evidence of genocide.
No, I'm pointing out that in the report you've decided to forget that it was speaking about the systemic way of treating the local muslim population as subpar humans and breaching their fundamental freedoms on a daily basis, while, and once again you "forgot" to respond to it, leading a program of culture erasure since the 50's and the Xinjiang independence was in the name of "stability" and "war on terror" since the 90's, using official language change, customs erasure and legislation, while also limiting far more the reproduction rights of the Uyghurs compared to the Hans settlers.
This shit is known, once again, since the 50's, and was documented and reported far before China was considered an economical threat or even a developing nation. Once again, it was such a point of contention between the USSR and the CCP that it lead to multiple wars in the region, documented by the chinese, the ussr, and "the west". At this point, this is willful ignorance.
You consistently "forgetting" about the history of the region, minimizing the human rights violation when it's made by bootwearers with a red flag, and turning millions in "re-education" camps as "just a few individual acts of torture on prisoners", just shows that you just don't give a fuck and that you're just here for the contrarian aesthetic. The simple fact that the UN, which is in big part an organization used to justify and excuse colonialism has to call this shit "crime against humanity" is telling. The meekest of all international organisation cannot even excuse this without it looking like too much bootlicking.
You'd be born 10 years earlier, you would have been radicalized on 4chan instead and would be "ironically" shitposting about holocaust denial and saying shit like "no bro I swear this wasn't a genocide, Hitler wanted to build a jewish paradise on Madagascar, the camps were just temporary work camps and they had to let jews die because the Allies broke the supply lines". You'd be using the same rhetoric to minimize the actions of yet another authoritarian regime dabbling in ethnic cleansing, but since today being a nazi is too mainstream, the new flavor of boot to lick is chinese.
I'm old enough to remember irl tankies, and you're still all the same and will rather side with fascists whenever your limited view of what the left and even communism is is challenged.
You're an authoritarian LARPing as a leftist.
You keep rambling on source-free while not addressing anything I said.
This is how you "base your worldview on international organizations" yet wind up ignoring those organizations when they don't back up your atrocity propaganda.
You not getting the point is not me not addressing what you said. Me not giving an history lesson on the Xinjiang region history to you when you can find accounts from all sides online for free, is not rambling, it's just not engaging with the sealioning of the latest brand of redfash.
No, they do. One of them "only" speaks of crime against humanity so it's the one you decided represented the truth. I'm sure you're using the same logic with Palestine and Israel, right?
You can just stop here with the common auth rhetoric, you're a bootlicker, coming from a bootlicker instance, that has erected double standards as an olympic level sport. Anything that goes against your fairy tale must be propaganda, everything that agrees with it is truth. Any contradictor is a counter-revolutionary/liberal/fascist, and I swear after this last purge we'll achieve communism bro.
No I swear bro, this is not genocide if it does not come from the genocide region in France, otherwise it's just sparkling crime against humanity.
That's literally the hasbara playbook to deny genociding the palestinians lol. If it weren't so sad, it would be funny.
I asked you why you are right and the U.N. is wrong. You've refused to answer that. You've also refused to provide any examples of a reputable international organization that disagrees with the U.N.
All you've done is lie about what the U.N. report says, pretend you don't understand the difference between genocide and mistreatment of prisoners, and hit your "bootlicker" and "red fash" quotas for the day.
No, I've answered why a commission that was looking at only part of the situation could not, by design, conclude to anything else that crime against humanity. That's why I've added the historical element, that you still keep ignoring, for the third time, when it's the main argument in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China#Genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China#Ethnocide_or_cultural_genocide
This is what I refer to "wilful ignorance".
Could also check the ICIJ if you'd like independent orgs.
No, what I did was just pointing out that you were lying by minimizing the actual content of this report, and once I made that obvious, resorted to legalism.
Let's add to that the settlement colonialism and all the other shit I've listed previously, and tell me how it's not an attempt to erase Uyghurs identity and people.
I do. I guess the holocaust was not a genocide because they were also all rounded up in camps as prisoners. That's legalism that only libshit used to use.
Can you tell me how the following fits the category of "mistreatment of prisoners" more than "genocide" maybe?
When I see this kind of shit happening in Gaza, I call it a genocide, even before the oct. 7th events. Same in Armenia, Myanmar, Cambodia, Chechenia or whatever else other country doing this shit because I don't use selective acceptance of genocide.
I'm sure you won't answer to this following the argumentative playbook of an authoritarian troll that will most likely dismiss any provided source as western propaganda, or with an argumentative mille-feuilles full of the stupidest takes I've seen.
Aren't you rambling ?
Lmao no, you're bothering the wrong person
Probably, however currently, you are seating on the same table as all people who upvoted here.
https://kbin.earth/m/[email protected]/t/570709/De-federation-de-hexbear/comment/3267199/favourites
As happybagger said :
As you upvoted, you probably agreed with this point. What make you different from the rest of them ?
Get the fuck out of here
You confused me for someone else. An understandable mistake, but instead of simply acknowledging it or moving on you're now harassing me over shit I never said or even commented on.
Once again, get the fuck out of here
I don't understand.
why are you encouraging @[email protected] if you disagree with the following statement :
You upvoted this one too ? :)
👀