this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2023
44 points (85.5% liked)

World News

32378 readers
420 users here now

News from around the world!

Rules:

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] -5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I mean, isn't this just the most schizophrenic framing. It's Chinese soldiers who are lunatics for being patriotic but Americans are sane for threatening world war over a Chinese island on the other side of the world.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Suicide isn't patriotic. And it isn't a Chinese island; that's the point. It's a democratic, independent country that happens to be a US ally.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Officially. That's just political framing to keep China from going ape-shit. Unofficially, though... see the Six Assurances.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is true. The six assurances reaffirms that the United States doesn’t view Taiwan as a sovereign nation under either Taiwanese or Chinese rule. The main points it states is that the US will continue to supply Taiwan with weapons, it will not be involved with negotiations between the PRC and Taiwan, Taiwan is not a sovereign state and China is not recognized as having sovereignty over Taiwan.

So the US doesn’t think China has sovereignty over Taiwan while also saying they do not support Taiwan independence.

Basically it’s another way for the US to feed the military industrial complex while keeping the possibility of war in our back pocket without disrupting relations with our #1 trade partner.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yup, the military industrial complex is so screwed up.

Taiwan presents a tricky and strange situation. All I'm saying is that I really do not think that the US would sit back and watch China invade without doing anything.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Of course not, but they wouldn’t intervene for the good of the Taiwanese people. It would be because of all the US assets (chip investment) wrapped up in Taiwan. Not to mention war is good for business. So both the US and Chinese populations will be at the whims of their government sending them into a meat grinder all for financial interests.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yea they would probably sacrifice the Philippines first. Then Japan.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Fortunately…or unfortunately depending on how you look at it, the United States would use Japan as a base of operations to attack China and the Philippines is basically considered a giant aircraft carrier by the military. So they would want to keep them around while Taiwan gets sacrificed…though the Philippines would be next. Sad state of affairs all around.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Suicide isn’t patriotic

Tell that to literally all the European and American soldiers who say they want to die for their country, and all the bumper stickers, and all the memorials, and all of the ceremonies, and all of the rhetoric, and all of the families, and and and... Or do you not consider it suicide when Euro-centric soldiers choose to enlist and committing to fight to their death?

And it isn’t a Chinese island; that’s the point

It's literally populated by almost entirely Chinese people, Chinese people who genocided the native inhabitants. It is quite literally part of the same land mass and water ways just like Manhattan, Galveston, and the Florida Keys. In all ways except one, it is a Chinese island.

The one way that it is NOT a Chinese island is that when the losing fuedal-fascist White Army fled to the island, the imperial fascist British and Americans interceded to protect their imperial fascist interests by ensuring that the KMT was able to stay alive and that they would be further indebted to them. The KMT then proceeded to prosecute the ruthlessly brutal White Terror on the island while the North Atlantic imperial fascists maintained diplomatic and military relationships with the island as a way of holding on to their imperialist presence in China that they obtained through violence, occupation, and the forced selling of opium.

This is the ONLY definition of "Chinese" that Taiwan is not, specifically that it is not administered by the central government of the mainland. The former central governments all administered Taiwan prior to the civil war, but this particular central government was stopped by European interventionism to advance European interests.

You are grasping at straws in trying to construct a narrow moralistic narrative that smoothly eliminates all the parts of the narrative that would fly against your moral narrative. It's not working. Reality is what it is.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would say that suicide is not patriotic to anyone. Why do Chinese supporters always resort to whataboutism, anyway? Shitty behavior is shitty behavior, regardless.

The PRC has never owned Taiwan. Also, it doesn't matter about the ethnicity of the population because, at the end of the day, they don't want to be part of China.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would say that suicide is not patriotic to anyone.

But you have nothing to say to about America not allowing integration with China without launching a world war? Curious.

The PRC has never owned Taiwan

What a fucked up imperialist framing. The PRC doesn't own China, it is the current government of the sovereign nation of China which has included Taiwan for a very long time and still includes Taiwan. You don't say that the Democrats don't own Alabama, but you apply an idiosyncratic standard to argue that the US is justified in turning Taiwan into it's military proxy and threatening to send millions to their death over reintegration of a territory that is quite literally by all standards part of the same nation as the mainland.

Also, it doesn't matter about the ethnicity of the population because, at the end of the day, they don't want to be part of China.

You are talking about people who suffered under the White Terror for 40 years, which included torture and murder of anyone who disagrees with the KMT. The individual beliefs of the residents is a direct result not only of the indoctrination from that White Terror but from the heavy indoctrination by European propaganda for many many decades.

What matters is that there is no way from Taiwan to be independent. It will either be part of the imperial bloc and therefore a military threat to China and a base for Western imperial power projection and containment, or it will be administered as a province of China and the Europeans will be kicked out of their foot hold. This is why the conflict exists, not because the people in Taiwan care one way or the other, but because independent Taiwan is a strategic position for the European imperial order. China will integrate it because it is required for Chinese national security, which serves not merely the people of the mainland but also the people of the island. It would be tragic for the US to turn Taiwan into another meat grinder in its bid to use proxies to maintain its global oppression.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Why are you mad at me? It isn't my choice. You make some good points/observations, but I won't respond to each of them because the fact of the matter is that the US will not sit by and watch Taiwan be "reintegrated" (again, not my choice; just a fact).

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sometimes it is worthwhile to be mindful of users’ instances… dude you’re replying to is from one of those instances.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Aaaahh, gotcha. Good advice, thanks. 👍

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 year ago

It's also not the US's choice. The European empire, which the US inherited and evolved, is slowly but surely ending. The integration will happen, and the US won't launch a world war to stop it, because China won't launch a war to integrate, because China isn't the belligerent that the West has been trying to invent through propaganda for 2 centuries. Instead, China will continue to assert its position, demonstrate it's ability to protect Taiwan from further imperial manipulation, and wait until Taiwan is ready to experiment with "one country, two systems". China, unlike the West, can wait for a long time.

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's not a Chinese island. They don't wanna be ruled like that. It's their choice, not yours

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not a Chinese island? So landback to the indigenous Taiwanese, right?

[–] [email protected] -5 points 1 year ago

They're so ignorant they think you're talking about Han born there in the last 75 years.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Always funny to see people validating expensionism in the 21st century, really brings a colonialist bloodlust vibe.

Btw by funny I meant fucking depressing*

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

LOL, "expansionism". Like what NATO does? Or do you mean the reintegration of formerly centrally administered provinces after imperialist interventionism that occupied, divided, and oppressed? Because lest you forget, all the people on Taiwan, except for the very small number of natives who survived the genocidal KMT, they're all part of China. They seceded and the Europeans protected them, not because they had a right to seceded, but because Europe wanted to maintain military and economic dominance over the region. Taiwan is a proxy in this case. Reintegrating the proxy is not expansionism.

Expansionism is 600 military bases around the world. Expansionism is establishing Ukraine as a new proxy and attempting to install net new nuclear capabilities on its border with Russia. Expansionism is literally what China has been fighting against for centuries. And now, because they want to continue pushing out European interests from their corner of the world, you're crying "expansionism"! It's ridiculous. Was it expansionism when Hong Kong was returned to China from the British? Was it expansionism when the British could no longer have complete immunity from Chinese law in Shanghai? Was it expansionism when the North Koreans tried to push out the Japanese from the peninsula?

Europe has been expanding for 600 years and you're going to cry foul when someone tries to push out European interests from where they never should have been in the first place?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Most of taiwanese people consider themselves taiwanese and do not want to be part of china again. No matter what happened before people now DO NOT want it or if they so they are now a minority. In case you din't know ujraine was invaded, and without western help it would've been swalloded by russia. You are trying to justify killings and rubles by citing the pastand ignoring the present.

With this kind of mentally everything can be justified. The core of rhe probleme now is much much more simple :

People want to go in someone else home and take it.

This is it, that's all. And if you're for that you need to ask yourself what you're really behind.

I'm personnaly fully against america emperialism and all the shit they do in south america, africa, etc... Their egemony on ecomy that is hurting all the planet, their lazyness torward climate change etc egc I'm agaisnt CCP repression of those they do not consider worthy, and their policy on privacy and their effort to control south asia. Etc etc...

Once you start to look closely everybody is an asshole because they are BUT this does not EVER justify senseless killing over patriotism, sovereignty, or wtv the fuck.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What people consider themselves is unimportant. Taiwanese is not an identity, it's not a culture, it's not a nation. Just like the Confederacy isn't a separate nation and the people who identify with it aren't a separate nation. Identity is historically and communally constructed. The history of Taiwan under the KMT is literally the history of a Chinese military executing a terror campaign for 4 decades and collaborating with imperialist powers. That's it. That's the history. That doesn't make a separate culture, it makes a separate political group. There's a big difference.

Taiwanese IS a separate culture, but only in reference to indigenous Islanders. Calling the genocidal KMT "Taiwanese" is as bad as calling the occupying white French people in Haiti "Haitians" or occupying white English people in Jamaica "Jamaicans" or occupying white Americans in Hawaii "Hawaiian".

The REASONS people don't want to be part of mainland China are illegitimate reasons, just like the reason for the Confederacy to secede was illegitimate. The REASONS people in Taiwan don't want to be a part of the mainland include: the KMT killed everyone who wanted to be a part of the mainland, generations of people were traumatized by the mass murders and taught their children to believe things based on that terror, Western imperilaists propagandize the island relentlessly to move public opinion towards Western interests, Western imperialists have created financial incentives for the upper class in Taiwan to adopt a pro-Western stance to support Western interests, Western imperialists have meddled in the political and cultural affairs of Taiwan since the KMT fled there to create political conditions favorable to the West.

None of these are legitimate reasons for Chinese people in Taiwan to claim a new identity. Also, none of these are sustainable reasons, which is why China will only invade Taiwan if the West moves to create new military threats via their control of the island. Without that provocation, China will integrate Taiwan slowly, by creating incentives and decoupling Taiwan from Western interests. As the dollar collapses and US economic hegemony falters, the incentives will start to drop. As China continues its counter-intelligence against the US and continues influencing Taiwan and the region, Taiwan will move towards the mainland over time. The West must not interfere with this process.

And you're wrong that people want to go into Taiwan and take people's home. China is very clear - one country, two systems. The people on Taiwan stay there, but they would no longer have Western military bases there. The Chinese military would defend Taiwan as one country. The foreign policy stances would be decided by the party and include the interests of Taiwan against the West. Laws in Taiwan would remain the same at first and through democratic processes, the people of Taiwan would slowly integrate their system and the mainland to create the best system possible.

None of this is taking people's home. China operates the most complex multi-ethnic multi-system country in the world. Unlike how when the US comes in and colonizes, China has demonstrated for decades what coexistence and autonomy look like.

You imagine you have an enlightened political position that sees both China and the US as evil. You think you have any reasonable opinion on China despite being totally ignorant of the country, it's politics, and it's history. You think China represses those they consider less worthy while it is currently the world leader in multi-ethnic autonomy. You think China has a privacy problem despite all of the revelations about the West's truly complete domestic spying on literally every thing including doorbells and baby monitors.

You are ignorant, and you use that ignorance to develop an imagined political stance that literally only Westerners hold. There are no other people in the world who think your position is reasonable, let alone informed. It's a purely western construction, emerging from systemic Western propaganda and individual Western ignorance. The more you study China, the more your position will change.

I would know. I used to believe what you believed.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As much as my vision is clouded by western view yours is clouded by china's. You speak of flawless integration, look at hong kong struggle since it's been handed back to china. Listening to you everybody is evil but china the perfect country where everybody is happy. The situation is complicated and both sides have their pros and cons but you are delusional beyond repair it seems.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Nah, you missed the whole point. I am American. My family is all white European anti-black settler colonialists. I went to public school. Grew up on US media. Played red scare video games.

I don't live in China. I don't consume Chinese movies or TV. I don't watch Chinese social media.

The idea that my view is clouded by China in the same way that yours is clouded by the West is, quite frankly, ridiculous. We are both clouded by the West. I am working hard to remove the clouds.

I study philosophy, politics, economics, and history. I started with American, because I live here. I studied European, because so much philosophy came from there. Eventually I came to these new conclusions and framings.

I consume white, black, and indigenous media produced in the US. I am sometimes exposed to people from Chinese, Russian, Ukrainian, Indian, Thai, various African countries, various South American countries, and various Asian countries as they are interviewer by American white, black, and indigenous people. Sometimes I read works from international people who write in English, or I read historical works that have been translated.

What do you do to help you see more clearly? It sounds like you have a problem here. You imagine my position as a strawman, that China can do no wrong, and that I am delusional, in order to make sense of what I am saying.

I encourage you to read more, listen more, and challenge your indoctrination more thoroughly. I recognize both your ignorance and your indoctrination because I personally experienced the same indoctrination and the same ignorance. I held the same positions you did in my past. I critique you not because I don't know what you're going through but because I recognize my own experience in your words. You have not said anything I haven't heard and analyzed before. You are repeating poorly supported positions that have been significantly written about, analyzed, and found wanting by many many people who spend their lives in research and analysis of these things. My current position is based on my reading of dozens of analyses from people in different places, different affiliations, different histories, and different perspectives.

I encourage you to put in more work on this.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Dude you just wrote a "i lived by the sword " copy pasta here you are the one looking ridiculous.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago

Whatever makes you feel better, sweetie

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago

wait how do you consume a movie? or a TV show? do you ever get indigestion?