But if you earn over the threshold, you're expected to pay taxes to the US government, no matter where you're actually living or working, no matter if you're also paying taxes wherever you currently are. The US is the only country in the world to assert that it has the right to tax its citizens remotely in this manner. It's not normal.
this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2024
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The US has double taxation treaties with over 60 countries. When you pay taxes somewhere else, you deduct all of that tax from your US taxes above the $125k.
Though I definitely agree the IRS shouldn't need these treaties, because if you're not living there, why should you even need to file?
It’s Navy SEAL protection money.
They also charge you a crazy exit tax if you want to give up citizenship in order to save on taxes. They always get their pound of flesh.
Which is absolutely wild to me, considering that all natively born citizens received their citizenship involuntarily at birth.
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"over the threshold, you're expected to pay taxes"
sort of, that's the "up to 125k" limit part of the FEIE(readjusted for inflation every year).
you still don't pay taxes on the first 125k.
earning more than 125k is not a problem most people have.
The problem most people have is not knowing that the feie exists in the first place and there are legal, straightforward ways to avoid paying income tax while saving money traveling.
"no matter if you're also paying taxes wherever you currently are..."
this is very iffy and depends on a lot of factors.
again, for most regular people, foreign income tax credits will erase most financial duties to the US.
"The US is the only country in the world..."
nearly.
"It's not normal."
nope, it's definitely weird and it sucks.
but at least there's the FEIE.
Double taxation treaties are very common. What I've been told by US coworkers makes the US stand out is that you still need to file your taxes with the IRS, even when living abroad. No idea if that's actually the case.
I have lived outside my native country for a while and only had to file taxes in my country of residence (neither of which is the US), because there's a DTAA in place between the two.
Add that to the list
It’s not the only country. I’ve lived in another country that was just like that. I bet other countries have the same rule to avoid some tax loophole. Or just because they can.
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I always find it mad as hell that Americans have to pay tax in the US even if they are living and earning elsewhere
Especially given generally Americans are pretty allergic to reasonable taxation
yeah it is totally banana stacks, and nobody tells anybody else how to get around that, of course.
since nobody knows the sacred knowledge anyway.
some tax guy, not my tax guy, just a random guy who worked in taxes, offhandedly mentioned it to me like it was no big deal one day and I was like whaaaat?
most of the expats I know just don't pay taxes because they're dumb, or they're paying taxes that they don't need to because nobody told them about the FEIE.
You still need to file every year. An advisor at least here in Germany can do both countries, but you pay a premium for that.
I addressed that in a comment but I did not include that in the body.
fixed.
The FEIE is super simple to fill out.
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I read somewhere that Eritrea (the North Korea of Africa) is the only other country that has this policy.
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However, since you don't pay taxes on that money, it can impact which kinds of retirement accounts you can use based in the US, if any. Also, trying to invest as a US citizen outside the US can suck because of all the agreements with US banks. Many Japanese platforms, for instance, won't touch me because of US reporting requirements. I also can't functionally use the tax-advantaged retirement accounts here because many amount to what are called PFICs by the IRS which requires paperwork and are taxed punitively more than wiping out any advantage the retirement accounts would have.
You're also going to have a rough time getting a US investment account if you don't have one already. Then you have to figure out how to have a US phone number because two-factor auth basically requires it for any bank or anything that will touch you.
There are other "fun" things about being a US citizen living abroad.
"However, since you don't pay taxes on that money, it can impact which kinds of retirement accounts you can use, if any"
The math works out in your favor.
wouldn't you rather have that money earning interest now rather than receiving a few hundred later on when you probably don't need it as much?
"Also, trying to invest as a US citizen outside the US can suck because of all the agreements with US banks."
it can suck, and it can also be awesome.
I see you're speaking specifically to Japanese banking standards, which I would agree are one of the more difficult countries for a US citizen to interface with.
but that's a great thing about there being about 200 countries.
Bank somewhere else if you want to.
try Hong Kong or China or Thailand or Portugal or Sweden or you know, a lot of countries.
you don't have to live in the country you bank in.
Yeah, some is specific to Japan, though there will be similar hurdles anywhere the US has an agreement (and that the target country's institutions actually follow it, I suppose).
I have a couple of retirement accounts in the US that I contributed to before (I moved overseas in my early 30s) that I basically can't touch for a number of reasons right now. Just wanted to throw it out there.
Do you live abroad? I'm expatting in a few weeks (long planned, not in a pure panic due to Trump) and would love ask a few questions if so!
I can try to answer. I've lived in Japan for almost a decade (this is my 10th year).
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It might be interesting to crosspost this to [email protected]
Also, I know you mean good, but this isn't relevant to probably a high number of Lemmy users who are not US citizens
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The exemption only applies to earned income, meaning you cannot apply any of that $125k to stuff like investment returns, dividends, royalties, or rents collected.
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Unless you renounce US citizenship of course. I understand it's a bit extreme, but it is a solution
do you mean "another option to avoid paying taxes is renouncing your citizenship?"
in which case, yeah, extreme and still an option.
but the FEIE is way simpler and you can keep the few perks US citizenship still affords its rabble.
Which isn't free btw.
Yeah, it goes up faster than inflating each year, it seems. 126,400 per person or 253k for married I believe this year, which is a pretty fair bit especially considering you deduct the taxes you locally pay off the top first, afaik
"considering you deduct the taxes you locally pay off the top first"
i understood local taxation to be inclusive to the FEIE, can i see your source?
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/foreign-tax-credit.asp
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1116.pdf
I thought it was a Form 1116 thing, but I could be wrong for sure. IANAL and haven't yet done foreign taxes so who knows yet
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If you were employed by a foreign company that has no presence in the US how exactly would the IRS know whether you've earning more than $125k?
Honor system
Because money keeps getting deposited in your bank account every two weeks and you're not reporting any income.
Banks hand all of that information over.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean, but if someone works and lives abroad for 330 days of the year they'll likely have a bank account established within that country so that they don't have to deal with all of their daily financial activities being international transactions.
There is a system whereby foreign banks are obligated to report accounts held by Americans to the US for "anti terrorism" purposes.
And as a us citizen you are also obligated to report all of your foreign accounts in a FBAR filing each year.
There is a system whereby foreign banks are obligated to report accounts held by Americans to the US for “anti terrorism” purposes.
Could you give me a name, or at least some link to a government website that describes the system you're talking about?
https://www.fatf-gafi.org/en/countries/global-network.html
I am sure there are better sources than this, but I am going by what I was told by the bank when I opened an account here in Japan. And maybe it does not only apply to Americans, but I was told at the bank that I had to fill out additional anti-terror related paperwork with US details specifically because of US citizenship.
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I'm seriously tempted to sell all my stuff and just become a nomad.
Sounds pretty dreamy all in all.
it's pretty great.
and it's just about as easy as you have described.
If you have any questions, I am happy to answer.
I've been doing this a long time and I've helped other people start traveling.
I guess my only question is, if I sell everything and liquidate all of my assets I would probably have like 30 grand, maybe more maybe less.
How long is that going to last me while I'm wandering, and what options are there to keep money rolling in?
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tldr: "30 grand will last you at least 5 years of very comfortable living if you're at all trying to budget wisely.
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the easiest and most immediately profitable is English teacher, but remote work is vast and covers every field, so it really depends on what you're interested in.
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totally depends on your habits and proclivities, but I lived on less than $300 a month for about a year. a lot of hostels in Asia and Europe have monthly discounts and they're already like $7 a day. in Asia they can be $2 a day for a bunk bed in a room.
private rooms are 10 to 15 bucks a day, but if you're going to do that then just go to a hotel and pay for the month, which you can easily get for $200 to $300 a month all utilities included.
I've been doing this a while, so right now I'm living in India paying $300 a month for a private two-bedroom two bathroom full kitchen, living room and dining room house plus rooftop terrace parking garage, the whole package, all utilities included plus free unlimited Wi-Fi.
about $0.90 will get you at one entree of chili goby, 2 to 4 rotis and a side of dal or curry.
kabobs are about $0.20 here, potstickers are up to $0.10 each.
anyway, you can live extremely cheaply in the beginning and then figure out what you want and go from there.
If you have 30 grand and no experience traveling, you can rent private condos or houses in a couple dozen countries off tge top of my head for less than 500 USD a month, all utilities included.
in the cheaper countries, you can spend $20 a day eating out at the fancier restaurants or go to the mom and pop shops or cook yourself and spend $1-3 a day on simpler meals.
If you want to pamper yourself and live in more expensive countries, you can double all those prices, but the more you travel the better you'll get at traveling and finding good prices.
30 grand will last you at least 5 years if you're at all watching your money,.
annually, you only need a couple thousand to live indoors and eat as much as you want, several thousand to to live privately end comfortably and enjoy entertainment everyday, and a few thousand after that to splurge most of the year.
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important consideration is that you only need to make five grand a year for all of your expenses well traveling in the more affordable countries (of which there are dozens), anything after that is play money.
If you have zero skills or certifications, English teaching is the easiest and quickest way to make money. you're instantly making $12 to $20 an hour repeating primary colors and fundamental vocabulary to smart well-behaved children for 45 minutes at a time.
you can get a tefl certification for 40 bucks on Groupon, that lasts for a lifetime and increases your pay up to $20 even without experience.
or you can just fly over to China and you'll get a job that week starting at an absolute minimum of $12 if you fuck up the interview and dress like a homeless person.
Last I checked, Saudi Arabia (and some provinces in China) was paying $6,000 US a month for English teachers.
that's the easiest, but there are plenty of other jobs you can do.
there are too many jobs to list, you can write articles if you're good at writing, you can get free it certifications and work as an SEO optimizer, you can literally pick berries and work seasonally in some countries.
I knew a Spanish couple who are just trying to choose a country and they just moved to whichever place had berry picking work that year, worked a couple days a week.
If I know your interests, talents or proficiencies I can suggest more specific jobs in that field, but again, you only need to make five grand a year to live very comfortably, and you only need a couple grand to live in a dorm and eat good food everyday.
If you have those savings you're talking about, you have a minimum of 5 years to figure out a way to make $5,000 bucks a year to maintain your standard of living, although you'll probably save money the longer you travel.
I'm definitely a jack of all trades, but I have a bachelor's in IT and like 10 years of work experience.
I feel like the competition is pretty high for people in that category though, but I could probably handle a couple hours a week of berry picking and English teaching.
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Does project 2025 get rid of the IRS? If so, how would this be enforced?
No, this is a legal and very straightforward IRS procedure corresponding to physical presence in the United States.
it's called the feie, Foreign earned income exclusion act.
you basically fill out one extra tax form called FEIE while you're doing your taxes, write down the dates you were outside of the country, and then since you aren't in the country and are not receiving any services from the US, you don't have to pay income tax up to a certain amount (it's a little over 125k this year).
that's it.
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