this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2024
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No Stupid Questions

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 2 days ago (1 children)

We don't know.

The US came back from a US president hiring private goons to spy on his political opponents.

The US came back from a US president illegally selling weapons to Iran to fund right wing militias in South America.

The US came back from a US cabinet member taking literal bribes from oil companies to give them oil drilling rights on federal land.

The US came back from a US president illegally firing a cabinet member and installing his own lackey.

But it didn't HAVE to.

I don't think there's really such a thing as a 'point of no return' for a Democracy. But it is possible to get to a point after which you don't return.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We’ll be fine. It will be a hard 4 years but based on last time trump will spend a fuck load of money to keep the masses happy. 2028 and on are going to be harder because trump will get some bullshit tax cuts passed that will target the middle class when he’s out of office.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Right now my mind is at, "it very well could be, but time will tell".

Had Trump had the right people in places to make certain decisions, it could have very well ended in 2020 just as much. Well the world did change in a big way near the end of his term, with COVID, how he botched it and how he gave corporate handout after corporate handout which caused the inflation that Biden is being blamed for.

I've been still grasping for ways that the US still can be saved, which there are many, but they hinge on

1A. Trump going back on many of his worst promises and not doing them, because reneging is his thing, or

1B. Trump and his team being too incompetent to enact his agenda, or

1C. The backlash to Trump's unpopular moves creates disobedience within government, military and writ large, preventing him from enacting his agenda, and

  1. Democracy not being rigged during his tenure, avoiding where elections become just as meaningful as Russia's or China's during the 4 years.

A plurality of Americans gave Trump and Republican facsism basically all the dragon balls of power, so it's up to him pretty much whether he can use them and the most Americans can do is organize and resist.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Outside perspective: It doesn't have to be. It is the moment democracy, its values and its people are tested. The path towards open dictatorship and/or fascism is not set in stone. What is clear is that some setbacks, even catastrophic setbacks, are unavoidable. But as a whole the free-fall can be avoided and you can bounce back from setbacks, even if it takes time. This is actually somewhat universal, since it's not only the U.S. which is sliding more and more towards fascistic or anti-democratic tendencies. It's just that, like with so many other things, everything does seem to be bigger in the U.S. (and Texas).

Although I'm sure a lot are feeling economic pain and/or are generally under stress and uncertainty (IIRC 50% of households struggle to make an unplanned $1000 expense), and I don't expect it to get better under the new administration, the U.S. is still a federated system. If you look at what affects your daily lives directly, a lot more is done on a local and state level, than on the federal level.

From where I'm standing, organizing with like-minded people in your community around issues is the most promising way to go. Unfortunately the issues are back to basics issues like human rights and democratic principles, but that's where we are. This entails more than just protesting, but actively pressuring elected officials around legislation proposals. Suggest ballot measures (find out how such a measure gets to the ballot in the first place, because it's very different depending on where you are). And of course having people run for office and for the others to support them to get in, and get the anti-democratic forces out, once it is time. Don't succumb to the nationalization of local elections. People can be reached way better and more directly on the local level, when they can see it directly affecting their lives and talking to the people responsible directly than for anything happening in Washington D.C. Counter the anti-democracy spewing media outlets with true alternatives (maybe there's an entrepreneurial-minded person wanting to found a cooperative media outlet).

It sounds like a lot to do. But you are more, than you think. Even the disillusioned might be good allies. Take yes for an answer. And more people than you might expect have been part of 'the struggle' for a long time. Welcome them. And yes: Coordinate with and support other local actions.

Another view on what will happen with the federal institutions: Although Trump will put more loyalists than ever in powerful stations, there will remain many (even among the loyalists) who profit from the system's status quo. This includes the Supreme Court justices and ironically corporate goons. So in furthering their own advantage, they might resist things leading to an overall degradation. Of course they will go along with and actively lobby for anything that gives them more power at the expense of the general populace, but that is already the case. Again, if you make unlikely allies on single issues: Take yes for an answer.

Bottom line: Democracy and basic rights are ideas, made by humans. And they can only survive, as long as we believe in and fight for them. Always keep the belief, always keep on fighting. If you hit your head and fall down: Get back up. As the saying goes: This is a marathon, not a sprint. All the best!

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 2 days ago (1 children)

No. People always want some apocalyptic ending, but there's always a chance to make adjustments in various ways. It's just that some solutions, the ones that are less painful and involved less people's lives getting destroyed and less death, some of those solutions become increasingly distant.

And look, if you go back and check out the history of unions and labor rights in the US, it was a bloody history. I think we might be looking at that repeating itself. And that's only if we're lucky.

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[–] [email protected] 58 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Progress isn't a straight line, and sometimes there are setbacks on the way. I'm disappointed, of course, but I'm optimistic that we'll manage.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 days ago (27 children)

We may yet manage as a country, but the millions that die from this election won’t get to see it.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 days ago (9 children)

It’s my point of no return. Leaving in two weeks forever. Good luck.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Hope you're okay and this is a move to another country being discussed?

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Congratulations. Did you already have citizenship somewhere else?

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 2 days ago

I hope not. But I am fearful that the US electorate has not grasped yet what it threw away.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Remember that time we as a country condoned owning people as property? No matter how bad shit gets in the next four years, there's no point of no return

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Mass deportations sweeping up agricultural workers will need to be replaced when a national emergency is declared because crops can't be harvested. President declares the crops can be harvested by prison populations...what's the word for captives forced to labor for no pay indefinitely?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Slavery. Notably not the same thing as chattel slavery. I'm not saying we can't get worse than we are right now, what I am saying is that no matter how bad things get, we can come back from it. Hell, Germany came back from being controlled by the actual Nazi party.

I know someone is gonna reply saying how awful life was in Germany for several decades between Nazi rule and modern Germany, and I'll note again that I never said life can't get worse, I only said there's no point of no return for a country.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

For democracy? Yes.

The longer the rubes hold on to this pipe dream that the dems can make a come back the further we will slip and longer it will take to recover. Unfortunately, I don't think democrat party members will ever give up on the democratic party and they will spend all their political goodwill investing in this farce of a party long after the elections are still free and fair.

Say, free and fair elections survive by some act of god. That doesn't change the fact the GOP can beat them handley in a free and fair election. The only thing trump needed to cement his win was the Supreme Court to sign off on everything. Given immunity all the road blocks trump had before have been lifted.

We have till January and you will see what the executive is actually capable of, with limp dick biden kicked to the curb.

The terror that will be trumps deportation methods will have your jaw drop and I'm not kidding. We tolerated kids in cages, Abu Ghraib is coming to America and our own sex trafficker and chief will begin some truly despicable shit. You better believe media capture is part of it because there is no way other country's will be let in on this side of the veil.

I'm not a doomer. It's not hyperbole. Im not an oracle and would pay with my own life just to be wrong.

I still am hopeful though that my countrymen can snap out of it and quit dismissing reality in real-time, allowing us an actual chance at resisting this upheaval. If we wait till the midterms though, this shit is cooked, packed, and on the shelf.

If you want to say, look at American history, I'd quickly defer you to the 90s. Whatever we might have once been we are no longer that. We are consumers educated by infomercials who only know reality TV and "influencers". Coke was the first plague, Springer the second. Followed by real world and road rules. All of this media "culture" stripped us of what it ever ment to be American. No one sits around and wanes intellectual about the founding fathers unless you're a fashie supreme court justice or Lin-Manuel Miranda. Today, in 2024, the Apprentice is more American than George Washington.

There was a time when a single black women sitting at the front of a bus could change a nation. Today Rosa would hit the front page of reddit on a Wednesday and fall off by the time Europeans woke up to see.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

Some very profound points.

I think we were fucked once we had a window to all the world's knowledge in our pockets. The line was immediately blurred between having access to that knowledge and the capacity to truly know and process, to possess, that knowledge.

That used to be the casual dividing line between the adults that considered politics and the people puking up shrimp and strawberry wine at the jersey shore. Now the shrimp and strawberry people count fox-scented infotainment as "news" and really just as their sports team of choice - and they line the paths to polling stations holding automatic rifles. They feel emboldened by knowledge they don't actually possess but feel confidence in the fact that they "could look up whenever, just don't want to right now".

All the "Good Liars" clips are a front row seat on American democracy bleeding out.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 days ago

This is based on nothing but vibes and my observations but I think so. We were cooked the moment we elected the clown the first time, just been a slower slide than I anticipated. In truth though we already had the disease at that point but it was then it became terminal.

I desperately want to be wrong and will do what I can to prove myself a moron. Fingers crossed.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It would seem that way. The people elected a guy that tried to overthrow democracy

How do you recover from that

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 days ago

You probably don't.

Even with a contentious subject like abortion. That's a disagreement about a specific topic. You can reach a middle ground. It's one of many topics to debate over and forge legislation regarding.

But the majority gleefully electing a guy that effectively looked us all straight in the face and said "I don't give a fuck about democracy and will attempt to subvert or overthrow it if it doesn't suit me"? Yeah, there's really no recovering from that. At least not without a long period of serious decline and suffering, followed by lots of struggle and death to earn back what we lose.

We disrespected the shit out of our democracy and everyone that fought/died for it. There's no way that ends well.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

May I suggest that you give Vlad Vexler's youtube a listen? He describes this as a period of dlweaking democracy, but explains why all is not lost.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

According to history? Yes, but I guess there's a chance that the USA will beat the odds

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 days ago

I was as surprised and disappointed as anyone, and I think we WILL take a few more steps backwards over the next few years, but I don't expect an unstoppable fall into fascism.

Most of the votes for Trump weren't actually FOR Trump. They were against the current situation they are in. They see him as the revolution. The anti-politician that will bring real change. They think all his court battles are the "Man" trying to hold him down and keep him from disrupting a system that gave up on its people long ago.

Of course that's all bullshit, but, assuming that all "normal" people can see through his lies and that only evil, woman hating racists would support him, is a big part of why he was elected.

Trump denied Project 2025 because he knew most people wouldn't want it. (Honestly, I would be surprised if he even knew what was in it) If he lets the Christian nationalists push that whole agenda on day one, he'll become the oppressive government that is taking away their freedoms. And nothing is more important to Trump than making Trump look good.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I think it's possibly the end of Western democracy. If Russia and China stroll through Europe with Trump's help, that's pretty much it, no?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 days ago (8 children)

Naw this is ridiculous.

Everyone knows it started in the 70s and we’ve been headed down hill ever since. Reality is this country died 60 years ago. It’s just taking awhile for the wheels to fall off the bus.

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