this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2023
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Hello all, this is the first post in a series of posts I'll be making weekly to drum up some diverse discussion relating to all different aspects of gaming. I figured I would start with what I know, and so the first topic is thus: roguelike games. (If you think any of the below description is wrong or misleading, let me know - that's part of the discussion!)

The name of this genre is derived from the game Rogue, released in 1980. The exact definition of a roguelike has been a topic of discussion for a long time, but the core tenets are usually agreed upon to be random/procedural generation and permanent death (no saving and continuing a run, you have to start over). Many roguelikes have an additional increased focus on collecting items and assembling a "build" over the course of a run. A "pure" roguelike is often claimed to have no meta-progression (that is, no procedural unlocks) and focus more on the journey than the destination - seeing how far you can get, or how high a score you can achieve, rather than reaching a distinct victory condition (not that these games don't have victory conditions, but that it isn't the end-all-be-all). The secondary term "roguelite" is often brought out to describe games that deviate from this. Additionally, the term "traditional roguelike" is sometimes employed to indicate a more strict adherence to the older style of this genre, with grid-based dungeon crawling and high complexity. Ultimately, as with a lot of genres, pinning down a 100% ironclad definition is near impossible, but most people that like this type of game could tell you the general "vibe" at a glance.

Here are some questions and subtopics that I encourage people to discuss:

  • What are some of your favorite examples of roguelike games?
  • What roguelike games do you think stand out in terms of defying the conventions of the genre?
  • Do you find there to be a meaningful difference between the usage of "roguelike" and "roguelite" nowadays? Which do you prefer? Where does the "traditional roguelike" fit into this?
  • Do you continue to play roguelike games after reaching the "end" / reaching 100% completion? Why, or why not?
  • What other genre do you most often enjoy seeing paired with roguelike?
  • Is any game with procedural generation and a run-based structure a roguelike, or is there more to it? Where do you personally draw the line?
  • What have been some of your best runs across all roguelike games? What's been memorable?
  • Are there any upcoming roguelike games you're excited for?

Also feel free to bring up anything you like related to the topic! If you have suggestions for future discussion topics, leave them in the suggestion thread.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Do you find there to be a meaningful difference between the usage of “roguelike” and “roguelite” nowadays? Which do you prefer?

The difference between roguelike and roguelite is quite significant. I play almost exclusively roguelites but have never touched a single roguelike

Do you continue to play roguelike games after reaching the “end” / reaching 100% completion? Why, or why not?

I don´t think most roguelites actually have an end because of the "just one more run" gameplay loop. After the run is before the run if you ask me

What have been some of your best runs across all roguelike games? What’s been memorable?

The most memorable run I ever had was in FTL: We killed the flagship while using no shields and no cloak in hard mode, advanced edition. I had tailored a special build for the challenge and it worked out! A lot of people on r/ftl didn´t even know it was possible until then- good times!

What are some of your favorite examples of rogue~~like~~lite games?

FTL - Faster Than Light: The first roguelite I played, it converted me and is my all time favorite video game across genres. I have 1400h+ in it and still play it sometimes. The combination of unforgiving gameplay and real time with pause, that keeps you constantly under pressure but also gives you unlimited time to think about your next actions makes it unique for me. I enjoy the complexity of the game when it comes to builds, its retro aesthetics and the "race through space" atmosphere

NOVA DRIFT: My most played game right now. When Asteroids, arpg and roguelite had an amphetamine fueled orgy this baby was the result. NOVA DRIFT is all about fast gameplay and quick reflexes. I love how NOVA DRIFT gets me "in the zone" every single run. It is so much fun when the game throws wave after wave at you while you are constantly dodging, killing and leveling up with crazy speed while power ups keep popping up every few seconds. The highly stylized neon art style looks great

HADES: I guess you know it already. If you don´t - try it

Children of MORTA - Family Trails mode: Best roguelite, arpg, dungeon crawler imo. This game distills everything I like from arpgs like Diablo2 and PoE - drastically simplifies the formula without sacrificing it´s soul and then makes a roguelite out of it. It also has very beautiful pixel graphics and is great fun in couch co-op runs

DEAD🔥CELLS: King of the Metroidvania subgenre and for good reason. Waiting for a nice package sale of all DLC until I start playing again

NUCLEAR THRONE: Crack in videogame form, played best with lots of caffeine

STEREDENN: A (really well made!) R-Type/Darius Twin clone roguelite

NEON CHROME: Top down cyberpunk shooter

NINE PARCHMENTS - Hardcore difficulty: If you enjoy playing roguelites in couch co-op sessions, I very much recommend this one

Darkest Dungeon: Do you enjoy feeling depressed, haunted and anxious - all at the same time? Do you also like turn based combat? Then this is the perfect game for you

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I started playing roguelikes with flash Binding of Isaac I bought for 99p in a steam sale, pre-Wrath of the Lamb. I'm still playing Rebirth and its expansions well over a decade later. I'd describe it as the perfect game. Why it shines as opposed where other great roguelites don't is because of how the items interact with each other. The interaction is key. It's still pure joy to walk into a room and absolutely melt everything in a second because of a synergy you've never seen. And now I think about it, what really makes the roguelike genre a favourite of mine is where every run is a challenge from the game: break me. I'd point at Noita as another game with this philosophy. Being given a random selection of tools and trying to cobble them together into something unstoppable.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Hades is potentially my favourite game of all time. For me to absolutely nails this style of game by perfectly weaving in a compelling narrative to the rogue mechanic. It's also gorgeous with the most ridiculously tight gameplay.

Honourable mention to Enter the Gungeon, haven't seen that mentioned yet. Very fun game.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Hades is probably one of my most played ones of recent time.

This has become one of my favourite genres and I own a good number of them.

I’d like to mention Dreamscaper and One Step from Eden as notable ones.

Monster Train as well because of how unique it is.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Thanks for the explanation!

The roguelike I keep coming back to these days is Dome Keeper. Resource mining + fighting monsters + casual play duration is a combo I find hard to beat at the moment.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

No Rogue Legacy love? I played the heck out of that one on both PC and PS4. The 2nd one is good as well, but it hasn't grabbed me quite like the first.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

My only contribution to this conversation is that not only does steam seem to have no fucking clue what a rogue like is, but that it certainly can't tell the difference between the two. So many games are in both of those lists, and many more shouldn't have the tag. Which sucks cuz I own most of the ACTUAL rogue-likes/lites on steam and am still looking for more

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Steam doesn't add the tags, I think? I remember they were user submitted.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think this is one of the big pitfalls of community prescribed tagging. Lord knows the Psychological Horror tag must be a mess.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'll go ahead and start off with responding to some of the points:

What are some of your favorite examples of roguelike games?

All-time favorites have to be Slay the Spire and Hades. StS was one of the cornerstones of deckbuilding roguelikes while still remaining one of the sleekest of all of them; mechanics fit together perfectly, with each loss leaving you working out how you screwed up rather than cursing the game for unfairness. Hades I like for entirely different reasons - it absolutely oozes style, with excellent presentation in terms of art direction, music, and copious dialogue. The rougelike nature of the game is woven directly into its narrative in a way I find very satisfying.

Enter the Gungeon should also be noted as one of the few games I've 100%ed. Although it has some flaws, the sheer amount of combinatory item synergies (both actual mechanical synergies noted by the UI and otherwise) gives it great replay value while not ballooning to absurd levels ala The Binding of Isaac (which, while still great, can be daunting in its scope).

Do you continue to play roguelike games after reaching the “end” / reaching 100% completion? Why, or why not?

Personally no, unless there is some sort of prestige mechanic that adds new challenges on successive runs (though one may consider beating all prestige levels part of 100%ing); I am still grinding out Ascension levels on both Slay the Spire and Monster Train. I find satisfaction in finishing a game that actually has a win state, and often lose interest after it's been achieved. Enter the Gungeon was one of the few exceptions to this, although by the time I had truly finished the game I was already very close to the full 100%.

Are there any upcoming roguelike games you’re excited for?

Hades II, for obvious reasons of course. Other smaller titles on my radar include Wizard with a Gun, whose demo I played and (while rough around the edges) had an engaging and swift core gameplay loop with metaprogression (though one must question the fuzzy distinction between a roguelike and a run-based game in general, or if there is one at all) and Dungeons & Degenerate Gamblers, a tiny but funny little deckbuilding roguelike that smashes together a lot of different card games and concepts for a wacky time.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have hundreds of hours in Slay the Spire of both IOS and Steam. Phenomenal game.

I struggled with getting past the first boss in Hades but I loved the art direction, story, and voice acting. I will probably give Hades II a try as I am sure there are a lot of improvements.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

I haven’t really liked any Roguelikes, and that includes all-star Hades.

It mostly just feels like repeating the same thing. In some cases, eventually and with much skill you can gather a build that actually changes the dynamics of the game a bit - but until then, it usually just functions as a brutally hard version of some genre you’d normally enjoy, where every little mistake you’d shrug off now becomes a long-term debilitation you have to worry about.

Hades’ assist modes weren’t even giving progress fast enough - it requires you to die many times before giving you anything that might actually improve your odds at any of the boss fights.

So far, the only Roguelike I’ve enjoyed is Backpack Hero. It’s on the easier side, and plays very much in promotion of getting you your OP build options with relatively little time spent.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

One of my least favorite genres.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What don't you like about it?

I ask this question in the interest in generating more discussion; there are many genres that I personally don't like that I know others do.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Most of it boils down to death as a core mechanic. I'm also a pretty casual game player and most of the games I like are fairly laid back, so the difficulty is also a factor. Although I do like difficult games sometimes, I don't like games designed to kill you easily, if that makes sense. I dislike grinding and most leveling systems, so making a game have grinding as a necessity for someone like me who's going to need it is frustrating. I feel like I'm just dying a bunch to get "level ups" so that I can actually play the game. Feel free to ask clarifying questions on this. It's a bit difficult for me to explain, I'm finding.

For the record and to hopefully explain with an example, I do like that they exist for people that like them and some games are fairly clever with it. Hades, for instance, makes a lot of sense to have a death mechanic because you're trying to escape the underworld. It's also a really clever game in general and I wish I could get over the difficulty and meta progression thing to play it. If it was a less difficult ARPG I'd personally like it more, but it wouldn't contain the thing that makes it what it is and I think I'd rather it exist as it does for people who like that. I also love the idea of descendants being your respawn that they used in Rogue Legacy.

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago

I enjoyed Hades more than FTL and Sts, because of the story progression between runs. Seems like I prefer roguelite than. I'm wondering, if Vampire Survivors is still in this genre with it's 30 min gameplay loop.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago

Dungeon crawl stone soup. Vampire summoner or octopus berserker?

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