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36
Denmark to seek legal means to prevent Quran burnings (www.aljazeera.com)
submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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The Danish government will try to find legal means that will enable authorities to prevent the burning of copies of the Quran in front of other countries’ embassies in Denmark, Foreign Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen has said.

“The burnings are deeply offensive and reckless acts committed by few individuals. These few individuals do not represent the values the Danish society is built on,” Rasmussen said in a statement on Sunday.

“The Danish government will therefore explore the possibility of intervening in special situations where, for instance, other countries, cultures, and religions are being insulted, and where this could have significant negative consequences for Denmark, not least with regard to security,” he said.

Denmark and Sweden have found themselves in the international spotlight in recent weeks following protests where the Quran, the Islamic holy book, has been damaged or burned.

In a separate statement on Sunday, Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson said he had been in close contact with his Danish counterpart Mette Frederiksen, and that a similar process was already under way in Sweden.

“We have also started to analyse the legal situation already … in order to consider measures to strengthen our national security and the security of Swedes in Sweden and around the world,” Kristersson said in a post to Instagram.

Outrage in Muslim countries

This month, far-right activists have carried out a number of public burnings of Islam’s holy book in front of the Iraqi, Egyptian, and Turkish embassies in the Danish capital.

On Monday, two members of the ultra-nationalist Danish Patriots stomped on a copy of the Quran and set it alight in a tin foil tray next to an Iraqi flag.

Earlier this month in Sweden, an Iraqi citizen living in the country, Salwan Momika, 37, stomped on the holy book and set several pages alight.

The public burnings in the Scandinavian countries have sparked widespread outrage across Muslim countries, with Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, Iran, Morocco, Qatar and Yemen lodging protests in response.

Sweden and Denmark have said they deplore the burning of the Koran but cannot prevent it under their rules protecting freedom of expression.

The United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) earlier this month approved a resolution on religious hatred and bigotry following several burnings.

Pakistan and other Organisation of Islamic Cooperation countries backed the motion, along with a number of non-Muslim majority countries including India and Vietnam. The United States and the European Union opposed the resolution on the grounds it interfered with freedom of expression.

In his statement, Rasmussen added that whatever measure was taken “must of course be done within the framework of the constitutionally protected freedom of expression and in a manner that does not change the fact that freedom of expression in Denmark has very broad scope”.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago

Maybe acknowledge that if you want to attack or even kill someone for burning a stupid book, the problem lies with the attacker, not the book burner.

Fuck religion.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I hoped it was clickbait, but it isn't. What the fuck Denmark.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

The Danish government will try to find legal means that will enable authorities to prevent the burning of copies of the Quran in front of other countries’ embassies in Denmark

Emphasis mine. This isn't some major restriction of free speech or anything, it's just a way to prevent idiots from trying to ruin diplomatic relations between Denmark and other countries.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (7 children)

So someone who escapes from a fundamentalist Muslim country can't protest that regime in front of said country's embassy anymore?

Nah, still fucking stupid.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

A law that prevents someone from burning a book counts as a major restriction on free speech as far as I am concerned. It's a book for gods sake. The fact that burning it causes offense is immaterial.. simply causing offense to a group is not sufficient ground to place a restriction on an act that otherwise harms no one.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

It is a restriction on free speech, though, however you want to frame it. A free society should not countenance it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The good news is that the burnings are still legal in front of danish embassies in Denmark. Which of course is nonsense, but why stress that it's in front of foreign embassies, that doesn't even make any kind of sense, it's the only kind of embassies there is. But that's how the government chose to put it!?

Instead og this diplomacy nonsense, giving in to fanatic muslims and undermining our democracy. We should rather invite them to a danish hygge meeting, with danish beer and traditional danish roast pork, and say they can bring their dogs if they want.

We shouldn't let religious fanatics dictate what we do in Denmark, that has zero impact and does zero harm to them. While they still have a death sentence on Salman Rushdie, and perform terrorist acts in Europe!!

This is a slippery slope that will never end, until we say enough is enough.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Oil money my friend, oil money can buy everything.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Denmark doesn't have unrestricted free speech. Censorship is against the constitution but hate speech, inciting violence or defamation is illegal and until 2017 blasphemy was illegal. There is some legal basis for punishing speech that is bringing the country into danger or is severely insulting another nation. I am not a lawyer so I don't know if it's applicable or if it will hold up in court.

Note that the government does not want to ban burning books. Just prevent/punish doing it as a provocation against another country.

I also want to stress that I am not defending the Danish government or the book burners. I just want to bring some needed nuance to the discussion

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Also there's presedence in a lot of countries that restrict protesting in front of embassies.

For instance in Switzerland in front of US and UK embassies. Not that I'm for that. I hope the police in Bern gets reigned in soon for their conduct.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm an Ex-christian. Religion has provoked plenty of suffering against me and my family through my life. I want to have the right to burn a Bible. The same way, I want Ex-muslims to have the right to burn the Quran.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I'm an exmuslim and dont see the point of desecration. It isnt going to change anyones mind or bring me acceptance (in fact I'd argue it will do the opposite). I want my worldview to be seen as rational and respectable, not angry and represented by empty acts.

I will however defend the right to criticize and say controversial things about Islam that have actual substance to them.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Desecration shows that there's no god reacting to the offense. It is a rational attack on faith.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Islam went through persecution during its formative period, by the religious and political status quo that existed (only to later go to war, subjugate other religions, enslave). The Quran already has explanations and consolations for persecution so they will rationalize the burnings using these.

Kindly, "where is your god now" will have no effect, assuming they look at it that way to begin with. That will be at the cost of ruining our (exmuslims) reputation, which imo isnt worth it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

A persecution complex is built-in as a default feature for the Abrahamic ones. I'm sure it's not unique to them, but it's a default feature, part of the marketing.

The cult dynamic of creating a cult identity works very nicely with converting criticism into a positive feedback loop for belief fervor. Instead of criticism being received honestly and evaluated accordingly, it's seen as conspiracy and mysterious/sinister/occult oppression. It's most obvious with the martyr fallacy, the notion that: "someone died for some idea/story/prophecy, therefore the story is true!". The past few years of pandemic have demonstrated repeatedly that it is a fallacy. And the backfire effect has its limits.

Kindly, “where is your god now” will have no effect, assuming they look at it that way to begin with. That will be at the cost of ruining our (exmuslims) reputation, which imo isnt worth it.

It's precisely for the doubters. The believers who are comfortable do not care.

Deeming some story "sacred" is an appeal to authority, some ancient authority usually (so, to tradition), and it's used as a defense against criticism... against even trying to think about criticism. It marks some idea, some premise, as unquestionable. So ruining the illusion of sacredness is an important step in allowing inspection and criticism. Go ahead and ask exbelievers when they started to doubt and if they had fear of doubting in the first place.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This logic doesn't hold up to any level of critical analysis. Burning a physics textbook doesn't prove there's no gravity reacting to the offense. Does Islam maintain as a tenet that God will strike down someone burning a copy of the Quran?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well any of his servants reacting to it would prove that claim wrong. That is like saying that the president don't exist because there is no reaction when you try to burn down the white house. You can get away with it of course, but it isnt good reasoning.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Is the president all powerful and all seeing?

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Free speech covers reprehensible speech.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

I'll go ahead and say "just copy the German laws". §166 StGB:

Revilement of religious faiths and religious and ideological communities

  1. Whoever publicly or by disseminating content (section 11 (3)) reviles the religion or ideology^1^ of others in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or a fine.
  2. Whoever publicly or by disseminating content (section 11 (3)) reviles a church or other religious or ideological^1^ community in Germany or its institutions or customs in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs the same penalty.

Historically speaking that section has been introduced after the 30 year war, when Lutherans and Catholics had it out for each other. It's why you don't see Lutherans calling Catholics Idolaters any more.

Apostasy, blasphemy, also religious critique etc. are all perfectly fine but if you're using religion as a vector of insult to disturb the public peace that's crossing the line. Burn all the Qurans you want just don't make a show out of it. Or print "The Quran, the holy Quran" on rolls of toilet paper and send them to public TV stations and mosques (actually happened).

^1^ "ideology" there is an iffy translation, what is meant is Weltanschauung. Say, Daoism is not a religion in the usual (German/western) sense but definitely a philosophy with deep epistemology and thus qualifies. So is Humanism.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

One problem with this sort of law is that it only ever targets minority religious opinions. You'd never see a priest get prosecuted for telling atheists they deserve to burn in hell, for example.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

My friend sadly this won't involve the burning of religious books. You can even do it live or on tv. If you insult the religion or their believers or provoke them with something else, you could use § 166 StGB. For example something like "all muslims should burn like this book" or "the islam is straight from hell, so we burn it...". § 130 StGB or § 185 StGB won't help you either. And as long as he own the book you can't use § 303 StGB.

So just the burning could happen in Germany, too.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Sure, mere burning, even public, won't qualify especially as it could be a Muslim properly disposing of a damaged Quran (the general rule of thumb is "give it a proper burial", that includes burning).

But I don't think any of those troublesome burnings happen without whoever is doing it providing context as to why they're doing it which then enables §166 as evidenced by, well, the public peace being disturbed by their actions.

It could be that those people then switch to burning Qurans silently -- yes that's allowed in Germany, even in public, even if you're a known opponent of Islam. But silent protests are also way less likely to incite public ire, more easy to overlook, and kinda hard to rally people with, even as a third person (unless you yourself want to be found guilty of §166). Sure Muslims might be miffed but the law is there to protect the public peace, not religious sentiment, and also silent burnings are sooo easy to counter: "Thank you, brother, for disposing of the Quran according to proper tradition". The perpetrator might want to object but then, well, §166.

Or, differently put: You don't see Quran burnings in Germany.

Lastly, state and municipal ordinances regarding open fires and the environment still apply. While state-level stuff should be easy to comply with (largely fire safety, nature reserves, forests etc), my municipality has a "smoke must not disturb the public" kind of ordinance and if you're burning something in a busy shopping area they might just interpret that one a bit more strictly than when making a campfire on the beach. Be ready for engaged bureaucrats (heh) asking questions about the chemical makeup of the ink and glue used in the book so they can tell whether you created a risk to public health.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Up to 3 years is a bit extreme for that

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Honestly the main problem I see here is people setting fire to items in a public space without proper combustion containment.

Like, sure, burn a book if you feel like it. But you should coordinate with the local fire department and use an approved and setting-appropriate container like a burn barrel, chiminea, etc.

Safety first, folks :]

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

This is signaling exactly the wrong message to the violent protesters. They see "if we throw a tantrum they do what we want" it will lead to more violent protest.

The opposite reaction would be appropriate. Tell tgem "If you continue to be violent we will mock your prophet and your book even more". If those people really listen to the Quran this should stop the violence.

During Mohammeds time the Muslims would mock the gods of the polytheists. When the polytheists finally had enough and threatened to mock Islam if they don't stop, "Allah" revealed

Surah 6:108

˹O believers!˺ Do not insult what they invoke besides Allah or they will insult Allah spitefully out of ignorance. This is how We have made each people’s deeds appealing to them. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them of what they used to do.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'm opposed to burning the Quran, but I am even more opposed to making it illegal to do so.

The wording quoted from the Danish politician by OP, assuming it is correctly quoted and translated sounds horrible and dystopian. Imaging making a law to make it illegal to do something that offends other people, or even offends other people from other countries. Now you have other people deciding on tummy feeling what is legal in your country. Absolutely disgusting.

Burning the Quran should continue to be legal, I just don't see why you would do that, or other books for that matter. There are way more price efficient ways to produce heat than book burning

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Yes, this is a case where the carrot is better than the stick. I'm not danish (maybe a blueberry one though), but if I was prone to burning books and the government suddenly cracked down on that, maybe I'm also prone to burning constitutions?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

As stupid provoking those medieval idiots is, it definitely shouldn't be legal. If I decide to start my grill with Quran in order to make me a dinner of pork chops, or draw Mohamed on piece of paper in order to pick up my dog's shit with it, it definitely shouldn't be illegal. Same way as saying Jesus is technically a zombie isn't illegal.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

As stupid provoking those medieval idiots is, it definitely shouldn’t be legal.

I think you mean illegal.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, the complication here is that the far-right groups pulling these stunts are allegedly being backed by Russia. The goal being to draw a backlash from Turkey in order to stop Sweden's NATO bid. They also burned a Torah to draw outrage from Israel, which is a country that Russia wants to keep on-site.

Free speech is being weaponized here, these are not random acts of self expression.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

They never actually burned the Torah. Both of the protestors that filed for permits for that backed out - one burned a blank sheet of paper instead.

They were just being performative and expected the Swedish police to be hypocrites, and were surprised when stuck to their values and didn't deny permission.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Ex-muslim here. The Quran should not get special treatment in the eyes of the law from any other book.

I oppose hatred towards Muslims, but the religion itself isn't exempt from criticism, and yes, that does include idiots who want to set the book on fire to make some kind of stupid point.

I don't like it, but I don't like the world having to tiptoe around overly sensitive Muslims who think everybody should show the same respect to the book that they do. The outrage would be at nowhere near the same magnitude if it were the Bible. Grow the hell up and stop validating these dumbass book burners.

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