Supporting Ukraine is the only U.S. military action since WW2 that I can truly support. Even our action in response to 9/11 was fucked up.
this post was submitted on 02 Jun 2023
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Same, its one of the only decisions the US has made that is pretty solidly good.
This has been a major reality check for me personally. For years I shook my head at the gargantuan US military budget thinking it's ridiculous. Fast forward to February 2022 and I realize it's the US once again cleaning up when Europe shits the bed. Ashamed, thankful and thoroughly convinced we need to spend a whole lot more in defense as well.
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Ha, the local tankies are starting to find out that they're outnumbered by reddit-fuges. Still, I believe that barring a negotiated peace, the war will continue for many, many years. The alternatives are either Russian withdraw and/or regime change or Ukrainian collapse, and neither seem likely in the near future. Even Kissinger, which is as blood-thirsty as they come, has suggested a negotiated peace, and it's hard to imagine a negotiation that doesn't concede something to Russia. The question isn't a moral one. The deaths will continue to pile up until negotiation begins.
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It's actually upsetting to read some people defend an illegal war of aggression in this thread. Just practice the golden rule for a change and imagine yourself being in the same situation. What if it was your country being invaded? Would you take up arms to defend your family, your friends, your neighbors? The bombs are dropping everywhere, and you have to hide in basements to prevent their terror attacks from taking away all that you hold dear.
Of course a country being invaded has the right to defend themselves and the right to fight back. The aggressors could end this war immediately but they wont because their leader is an insular autocrat. Isolating himself and giving orders without considering the best for the rest of the world. Devaluing human life from on top of a pedestal. This is the danger what happens when one single individual gains too much power and the rest of the world needs to be unanimously against it regardless of blind idealism.
Straight up. Israel and Ukraine are under constant attack these days and absolutely not be criticized for defending themselves even if they don't always go about it exactly the right way.
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Warmonger. Don't the Ukrainians get a say in whether the US can sacrifice so many people for US goals?
It’s funny how you blame the US for Russia’s invasion and pretend like Ukraine didn’t ask for our help.
That's not what I said.
yet it's very obviously what you meant
It's irrelevant who I blame for the war.
I'll explain.
The are several interpretations of what I said. Yours among them. But I am now confirming, for the second time, that I did not mean what you think I meant.
Two other valid interpretations, which I did intend, include: (1) that the US and it's executives and diplomats are warmongers; and (2) that Ukrainian demands are for the Ukrainians alone to determine.
The war is now an historical fact. Who started it is a significant issue but is neither here nor there for the point that I'm making. I'll elaborate on that point so as to put a stop to the evident confusion.
Peace will not be reached for so long as the US seeks profits in (a) selling weapons and (b) the reconstruction of Ukraine. The longer the war and the more destruction it causes, the more profit in it for the US.
The US is interested in Ukraine only insofar as it reaps these profits. I say nothing of ordinary Americans, who are likely genuinely and rightly appalled at the war and hope for the US to end it. Unfortunately, if they hope for this, they do not know their government nor it's financial interests. That is tragic, because if they did know, they might better help to end this war and many others.
The true ends of those decision makers (in the US and in Europe, too) are clear in statements like those in the linked article. If peace was the aim, the US would not be making demands that it knows Russia will never agree to. Are Russia's demands acceptable? It's again beside the point.
The question is, what is the quickest way to end the war? The answer to that question will reveal the steps that must be taken. I struggle to see how inflammatory warmongering statements from a known warmonger state could ever be part of that answer or those steps.
it's irrelevant who you blame because your argument is a strawman and tu quoque logical fallacy.
Russia, and Russia alone is to blame for the war in Ukraine, as they are the ones who invaded and refuse to leave. The war will end only when they leave, regardless of how much you try to deflect blame onto anyone else.
edit: and the fact that you call the US a "warmonger" simply for helping Ukraine defend itself reminds me of this:
“DARVO is an acronym used to describe a common strategy of abusers. The abuser will: Deny the abuse ever took place, then Attack the victim for attempting to hold the abuser accountable; then they will lie and claim that they, the abuser, are the real victim in the situation, thus Reversing the Victim and Offender.”
have a nice day.
At least we agree that I didn't say what I didn't say.
I'm calling the US a warmonger because it's been a warmonger for it's brief but entire history. Even if it turns out that this is the one war in which US motivations are good (i.e. not to make profit or further it's interests), it would still be a warmonger for every other war that it caused and prosecuted.
No amount of 'just war' will cancel out what the US did to Iraq or Libya or Vietnam or Laos or any number of other military atrocities.
At least we agree that I didn’t say what I didn’t say.
i never agreed to that
I’m calling the US a warmonger because it’s been a warmonger for it’s brief but entire history
now you're just changing your argument again by moving the goalposts to yet another tu quoque fallacy.
Even if it turns out that this is the one war in which US motivations are good (i.e. not to make profit or further it’s interests), it would still be a warmonger for every other war that it caused and prosecuted.
so, you even admit that your earlier assertions aren't necessarily factual, you're just arguing in bad faith because you have a grudge about what the US did in the past, which has no bearing here-- and is therefore irrelevant. like I said: a straw man and a tu quoque logical fallacy. in other words: bullshit. You just don't like the US, and you'll malign them for helping Ukraine defend itself, regardless of the merits, which you, yourself admit.
Your argument is no based in facts, it's based in your agenda of anger and bitterness.
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The US has been encircling Russia and China for decades with nuclear weapons and nuclear first strike capabilities. The idea that Russia just up and invaded Ukraine for no reason is a Western liberal construction that requires memoryholing the last 25 years of US/NATO aggression, expansion, and nuclear development.
Wait, I thought Ukraine was a sovereign, independent state. That's what the media been screeching about for over a year. Now it is saying USA is deciding their foreign policy?
Funny that
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