this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2024
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Now if only they could more clearly communicate when games are playable offline.

(page 2) 50 comments
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[–] [email protected] 51 points 14 hours ago

I feel like they're doing this because they are going so hard with steam deck. Regardless, good on Valve for doing this.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

I do everything important like banking etc on a separate device that isn't my gaming PC. This has been quite liberating since I worry less about invasive anti-cheat, drm etc. I realize not everyone wants to do this but it's been a nice compromise.

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 14 hours ago

Common valve W

[–] [email protected] 33 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Meanwhile at Epic...

"Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 hours ago

That's quite a generous interpretation. If we're being real about it, it's going to be another "you assholes" email from Timmy.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 14 hours ago (5 children)

Why is kernel-level anti-cheat even a thing?

If I was trying to prevent cheating, I'd hash the relevant game files, encrypt the values, and hard-code them into the executable. Then when the game is launched, calculated the hash of the existing files and compare to the saved values.

What is gained by running anti-cheat in kernel mode? I only play single-player games, so I assume I'm missing something.

[–] [email protected] 46 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Because there are kernel-level cheats

What you proposed can very easily be bypassed without even needing kernel access by just editing the executable code that checks hashes to always return true

[–] [email protected] 3 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Boo freaking hoo.

It's not like there are so many other ways to cheat, actually used in many games with anticheats.

We should all stop pretending it's necessary to put malware into your computer just so some company can claim they have no cheaters, which is never even true.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 hours ago

The point of anti-cheat is to create a substantial barrier for cheating. If you have to go the extra mile to run an external hardware cheat so as to be "undetected" then surely this means the anti-cheat is working. If it were as ineffective as you imply, cheaters would be cheating on their main accounts.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Modern cheats for multiplayer games don't modify local files (or attribute values in memory), since the server validates everything anyway. They're about giving you information that's available but not shown in the game (like see-through walls, or exact skill ranges), or manipulate input (dodge enemy damage, easy combos). Those cheat can run in kernel mode (or at least evade detection from user mode), so the anti-cheat needs kernel mode to be more effective.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 14 hours ago

They can prevent you from running cheats that other anti-cheats can't detect. For instance, they could modify the value in memory so that your calculated hash always succeeds even when it's modified. This doesn't stop cheating though; it just means cheaters have to use cheat hardware that exists at a layer that even kernel anti-cheat can't detect.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

And then a game gets updated so the hashes don't match and uh oh, everything is fucked. Oh, but we can change the hashes of the files in the executable! Yeah, so can they. People modding shit into the executable is basically a given. Let alone the fact that you'd need to sit through a steam "validation of files" length of time every time you'd need to launch a game (because validation works exactly as you have described).

What is gained is that it has access to more information. Some cheats use an entirely different program / process that reads memory and outputs info that is available to the game but hidden from the player. Like a client needs to know where a person on the other team is to be able to draw their model. So you read that, you put a little box over where they are, and bang you have wallhacks.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 14 hours ago

I think the popular thing now is to mod your mouse so it clicks on the enemy player's head.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 14 hours ago

You don't need to modify the files to modify data in memory.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

I wish Valve would just ban them. It's weird to have something that looks like pure malware in a Game store.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Probably a pessimistic take, but I don't expect this to have any discernable impact on sales, or any other effects that would discourage publishers from these practices. The average user doesn't care about or understand how these things work; they'll see an anti-cheat warning on the store page and think "Okay, tell the colonel I'll be on my best behavior then" and continue to buy the game.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 13 hours ago

It will benefit those that care and won't negatively impact the experience for those that don't.

Win, win.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 13 hours ago (3 children)

Not to be annoying, but can someone please ELI5 how kernel level anti-cheat software actually works, or link good resources where I can read about it.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

It runs with higher priveleges than you have and can see anything that happens on your computer.

It also creates a giant additional attack vector.

[–] scoobford 13 points 13 hours ago

Eli5: your PC has different access levels a program can run at. This prevents a malicious or badly coded program from completely fucking your computer. Kernel level anti cheat runs at the lowest level access that exists under windows. It can do basically whatever it wants to your PC, and if a backdoor is coded in (happens way more than you'd think), it gives malware basically total access to your PC.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 hours ago (6 children)

I imagine the alternative way to combat kernel-level cheats would be asking player for all his game state data, validating it on a server?

Wouldn't work on peer-to-peer and you'd have to do a bunch of unnecessary compute(recalculating every tick if player-generated data is possible according to game rules) but its the only way I can think of.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 hours ago

god damn right!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 13 hours ago
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