this post was submitted on 08 May 2024
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Science Memes

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submitted 6 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] 36 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Here's a link to the article in the screenshot, in case anyone else was interested in reading it like I was: https://www.freethink.com/futurology/cryogenically-frozen-humans

[–] [email protected] 18 points 6 months ago (3 children)

Thanks for this. Quite gruesome, but not at all unexpected. I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine a while back, where I made the argument that water expands when frozen and, since humans are mostly water, freezing a human would crack every vital organ. I'm actually upset to discover I was right.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

This is true, which is why preservation does not involve freezing, except for the bad attempts in the 70s the article talks about, which could never work. The bodies are vitrified, not frozen.

Which still doesn't mean it will work, the technology to revive them doesn't exist, but it doesn't have any freezing issue.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago

That actually doesn't sound much better to me, but my understanding of vitrification is minimal, at best. Still cool, though.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

there could be a way maybe, by freezing water while keeping it extremely pressurized (extremely), you can make "efficient ice" that occupies less space, called ice VII, I'm not kidding. It would cost literally billions of dollars so not yet feasible, but it keeps my sci-fi loving mind at ease.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago

Flash freezing can work, but it's almost impossible for something as large as a human body.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Cryoprotectants also do this pretty efficiently -- they prevent crystallization, which leads to "vitreous" ice, which has more or less the same structure as liquid water and so doesn't expand much. I think they do use that when freezing people, but the problem is that even if you fill the blood vessels with pure ethylene glycol, it diffuses very slowly, and it takes hours to get into cells which are far from large blood vessels. They dont diffuse the cryoprotectant in that thoroughly, though, because that'd take so long the body would have started to decay too much.

Edit: oops, the article talks about vitrifying agents. They make it sound like they're not effective, but as I said above, they're very effective if you can get them in every nook and cranny of every cell, which is a losing battle.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (2 children)

It's fine, as long as the temperature stays stable and no further damage is done. We're not going to revive their flesh. Instead we're going to chop them off in large chunks. Suspend them in a kind of agar. Then laser off 2nanometer at a time. Scan the surface with 1nm resolution PiFM or better method. That's going to yield many terabytes of image data that you can turms into a neural map of the entire nervous system. Even mapping this data to today's LLM would get something roughly able to speak like the corpse. The better this data processing gets the more real the resurrected sentiences will be.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago

That's assuming the freezing process hasn't irreparably damaged the brain structure, which I don't think anybody can confidently assert at the moment.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

This sounds pretty amazing. Do you have any sources (or process names that I can search)? I would love to read more into the LLM part of your statement. Seriously sounds like scifi, and I'm loving it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Visible human project for the 1993 first experiment 2013 slice culture modeling of central nervous system 2019 visible human body slice segmentation method 2022 scalable mapping of myelin and neuron density inthe human brain with micrometer resolution

In fiction We are legion, we are Bob Fun book but novice writer

Probably covered by futurist youtuber isaac arthur, probably part of the mind upload episode

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I'm familiar with some of those, but they don't digitally map thought and then read that map. At least not the last time I looked into them... Do they now?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Here is something close to tge cutting edge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSG3_JvnCkU

What they are creating is a connectome. A list of all neurons and their connection.

They are down to 34nm slices.

I said 2nm because the smallest features are 5nm inside the gap between neurons called synapses.

Presumably, there are no features enconding information smaller than that in the brain.

But just the connectome might be enough to replicate a consciousness.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Very interesting! Maybe once we understand the structure, we can recreate what's behind the structure. Not sure if that's a good thing, but it certainly is intriguing.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I don't think we need to understand tge structure. Just create a fidel digital copy and run it according to electrochemical rules we have from physics and I believe a largely intact consciousness will emerge.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

But wouldn't understanding the structure assist is rebuilding a mechanical version and, thus, recreating the consciousness into an artificial mechanism (such as a Terminator-esque android)?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It depends what you mean by "understand". If we have an intact digital connectome and we execute its circuitry in the right kind of simulator. A consciousness would ptobably emerge out of it. But I wouldn't call this "understanding". Trillion neurons and other structures are so complex and interwined, it strains the very idea of "understanding" how it works.

At least not without major aids to break it down into smaller easier to understand chunks.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago

That's fair. I do make a distinction between understanding how something works and why something works. Making it work the way you describe, to me at least, is understanding enough of how it works to be able to reproduce it, even if we don't yet understand why it works. Until we understand this science, it's magic.