Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
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Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
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The title and some comments read like a revelation of people who, without looking into it, assumed feminism is for women or is anti men and are surprised that the movement actually wants to free everyone from the cycle of abuse.
Every movement has a canon: the core principles behind it, a mythology about its history, and the textbook statement of its objectives.
Every movement also has a reality. Thousands or millions of people with their own ideosynchratic beliefs forming a complex social web. Within this web, a vibrant biosphere of memes [0] develop, spread and evolve on this social web. A movement is simply a name we give to a cluster of memes within this complex web. It is not any of the myths we tell about it; those are merely particular memes holding the cluster together.
The author of this article is a self described liberal feminist. She identifies a change that occurred within her bubble of feminism, where it became increasingly anti-man.
To be clear, that is not all the author says. Once she gets to the "Let's talk about how the patriarchy harms men and boys" section, she stops the meta conversation about the movement itself, and spends the rest of the article discussing mens issues directly.
However, to your comment, and the first part of the article, maybe we need to stop hiding behind the mythology we tell ourselves about feminist; and start recognizing that the "feminist" portions of the social web are still susceptible to anti-feminist memes.
[0] in its original sense; as a direct analog to the genes of biology.
It's because of the name and history of fighting for women. The movement should have gone for "egalitarianism" if they didn't want people to think of women first/exclusively.
It's why I've vehemently rejected the label of feminist even when I'm in feminist spaces with feminist friends: I'm here for everyone, there's a word for that, use it.
Except movements are often named after the oppressed group. Black Lives Matter, for example, doesn’t really want cops to only stop killing Black people. Black people are just disproportionately impacted.
Feminism is about raising up women’s status in society. That benefits men in the process though.
That's nice, but I don't care. Doing things in a stupid way because "that's how we've always done it" is literally conservativism, which I'm not really for.
This thread originates from a comment surprised that people would look at a gendered term and assume actions done in that name are for said gender, this should be an obvious and predictable outcome, one that's been seen countless times, and has a simple and easy fix
No your position is dumb, it is petty and so silly and a perfect example of how dumb you're being. No one decided this. It just developed this way. Your critique is the name?
Feminism is an egalitarian movement that likely you'd not even know what the word meant had this movement not continued for its history. Feminism is the grandmother of almost any egalitarian movement today.
Fool. You're a petty fool
You don't win an argument with name calling
From an outsider, when I heard Black Lives Matter I thought the core goal was to value black lives more.
It’s less about what they “want” and more about what got them to protest… which is police behaviour towards black individuals, not everyone.
Sounds like different movement then. There is nothing wrong with saying feminism did its job and now we need equalism.
You might be okay with that refocus, but maaannnyyy feminist aren’t.
Indeed. Wish I could give you a dozen upvotes.
That's petty and sexist as fuck. Literally the perfect example of toxic masculinity
It is the equivalent of only using soaps labeled "for men"
Do you need things gendered correctly for you to use it? Maybe your gender should've fought for equality first then. Maybe then you can have your Malenism or whatever you'd want it to be called
Please make an effort to understand the point someone is making before attacking it.
Excuse me? Are you really this?
This man is against a movement that champions for him because the name is gendered towards a group that he doesn't identify with. He is resistant to it and the position it takes up because of the name.
There is no council of "the Feminists" who vote the name. This is a term that has evolved into this place, not one person put it this way and the absolute silly pettiness of it is his reason to oppose it?
And you think I'm failing to understand that position? You know who takes positions like that? Children.
foh my god how absolutely childish 🤣
"They said something negative about my movement, they must be an enemy"
You assumed their gender, they did not mention it in the comment. Given the context, quite embarrassing.
You can't accept simple critique about a name. Their only complain of the movement is the name, that's a fucking good ally to have. I'm all in about the feminist movement, I acknowledge that it's about everyone, and I still see why some people would get confused.
Are you a troll? You must be a troll. If you are not, you really need to talk with someone about how incapable you are about receiving critique.
Wow, talk about being childish.
But they're not. They are simply saying that lay people assuming feminism is for feminine gender is to be expected as they may go on the face value of it. They aren't saying that the goal of feminism is anti men, rather they agree it is anti abuse due to patriarchal structures but the naming only brings confusion and irrational reactions for the uninformed.
No. Reread what he said.
He is not a feminist because they should've renamed themselves. That's not a criticism, that's a stance of someone masquerading as an ally it is a well-known position many men take so they don't have to actually support the movement that works on their behalf.
That criticism has been used to bring genuine resistance to the movement and the fact all these dudes in here still say/think this shit shows why this person is a dummy.
Ok, but is that the case for this specific person? Or are you using the general trend to attack someone in particular who may not exhibit the negative traits you associate with their position? Condemning someone as a fake ally when they are not is not a good move for several reasons.
"All Lives Matter"
🥱
?
So by inference, some lives don’t matter. Care to say which you consider disposable?
If that is your inference you don't understand the reference
To address the least objectionable part of this comment (it bugs me and the rest has been covered already):
How do you expect terms to evolve without people making arguments like this? You accept it as a fact that these terms evolve and are agreed upon somehow, but you're missing that this happens through individual people making points like this.
Why does it need to evolve? It is feminism you know what it is. You are for all of it but the name, so you won't support it?
And don't do what dummy above said and claim you support it but don't use the label because it is gendered. That is some privileged ass shit bro. Bore me to death out here
I mean, we do, but a surprising amount of people don't. This is precisely why the name should evolve. Well, that and the perspective that the movement's goals have changed significantly enough from individual liberation of women to comprehensive equality of everyone, which should come with a corresponding change in the name. These are related.
It's more that if people are informally introduced to the movement, their preconceptions are formed by its name. This can turn them off from seeking or accepting the real nature of the movement once it's explained to them. As a reminder, most people put very little thought into this sort of thing, so making a good impression for the people who are potential allies is important. You can argue that that's stupid and shouldn't be necessary, but it won't stop it from working like that.
I don't think I've ever encountered a situation where it's useful to directly say "I am a feminist" because it's generally clear from my other opinions, but I would if the situation required it. I do agree that an alternative label would be better, though.
That's not evolution lol that is forced rebranding because of how some dudes feel. If their hurdle is the term feminism then good, they're not ready to be adults.
Shake my god damn mother fuckin entire head bro. shake that shit left and then right over how foolish you boys are.
Horsepower, Butterfly, Literally, Blowjob, The Democraric People's Republic of Korea. You cool with that shit but not Feminism? Because your weiner isn't in the title????
Like bro there are still places called Indian Creek in America. Feminism is the term we gotta go after though?
I bet every dude saying this line of thought uses words like literally and doesn't bat an eye.
Ok you're clearly just trolling. Let the record show that I tried anyway. Get well soon
Yeah it’s a troll. Six-day-old account apparently created just for trolling.
mad cause bad
Six-day-old troll account. Ignored.
Men's Liberation instance with dudes asking to change the name of feminism
But I'm the troll lmfaooo
The problem is that the "Kill all men" extremists are often the loudest which causes many to think that feminism in general is like that.
Yep. There's an unfortunate amount of people who cloak themselves under the guise of being a feminist, or claiming to care about women's issues, that could be more accurately referred to as misandrists.
It's my belief that there's a heavy overlap between these people and TERFs. With TERFs hating trans women in particular (notice how prominent TERFs like JKR never seem to talk about trans men? It's always "men in dresses infiltrating women's public toilets", which amusingly is also pushing the misogynistic idea that women are delicate fragile flowers that eternally need protection in every aspect of their lives).
But why? Why trans women in particular? Because not only do these TERFs view trans women as men, it's worse. They view trans women as men infiltrating their women-only "club", and that's something they don't tolerate.
It's unfortunate that terminally online minorities within movements that screech the loudest can have such a profound effect on the image of that movement. I think it's also a big part of why menslib movements struggle. People hear anything to do with it and their brain is clouded with preconceptions like angry incels, Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, etc. People who often purport themselves as activists of men's rights, when in reality they're usually either grifters or people yearning to be back in the 1950s.
It’s cause we are in the age of valuing the loudest opinion not the most logical.
Lack of education is a hell of a drug.
Fucking hilarious how much a ferengi has to say about feminism! Thanks for commenting(and for the comment too!) so i got to see this.
And thanks to all you who upvoted it and helped me see it as well
Edit: yes i did notice its nagus and not negus but im okay with what i said
In my experience, in general for all movements, loudest ones are always a bit more extreme and sometimes over the edge. It seems to be very strongly coupled with activism and in many cases drives the movement forward. So I have trouble accepting that reason as an excuse to so quickly dismiss something, especially a major movement.
However this is a very widespread issue and a reason my comment sounded a bit annoyed. But since it is an actual problem, articles and discussions like this are important and meaningful. Hope your community keeps growing and more men who struggle with of abuse from the patriarchy are able to find a safe space and a support system 🧡
And these both side feminist are on the same team as the “kill all men” ones. I’ve never seen any “real feminist” call these ones out.
It probably is. Not everyone has a robust education, misinformation is rampant, and there is always a new generation still learning the world. At a glance the word "feminism" appears as a movement just for women, so occasionally having headlines like this can help the misinformed or still learning to reevaulate their understanding.
Some people are surprised to learn it is not just about women.
I’ve been told it’s not about just women, I don’t believe that until it’s renamed.
Why call something a name to misrepresent it?? Unless of course, feminism is mostly about women and this is just gas lighting?
How many feminists fought for men’s right recently compared to fighting for women?
If feminism wasn’t women centric, it wouldn’t be called feminism, it would be called humanism or just equality.
How can a movement centred around women empowerment also empower men?
Some people read the above and see it possible, some, like me, see it as an oxymoron.
If it’s just a label, then just rebrand it…
I think that it’s very straightforward that the movement fighting against patriarchy benefits everyone suffering under it and empowers all of its victims. I will elaborate more in a second but first, here is the fundamental definition of feminism:
I understand your concerns about the word, and it was about women when it started, obviously, as women have needed and still need to fight for basic legal rights and autonomy, but since its inception the movement has evolved and widened a lot. It is also crazy how arguments like yours disregard all the battles that feminists fought - ones that are the reason why we all have a better society, healthier relationships and kinder childhoods. All these changes have benefited men no less than women. Men have been substantially liberated from many harsh and crushing burdens of more extreme patriarchy, such as the stress from unequal financial burden or the responsibilities and expectations disrupting bonding with children, trauma of watching mothers receive unequal treatment or live through abuse or themselves being victims, etc. Not supporting the movement that keeps fighting for that change that benefits everyone, just because women are being abused by patriarchy more, and are therefore more represented in the movement more, is shocking to me. Disregarding and diminishing all the efforts and benefits by nitpicking over the origin of the word just seems ungrateful and unfair.
So right from the get go, the language you use assumes masculinity or “patriarchy” is inherently broken and needs to be fixed. I find that sexist and imo a non sexist take is to free people from human greed and selfishness.
Yes! That’s when feminism made sense. It was named after women, for women’s rights, which they got. Feminism being a success meant it was not needed as much.
That’s is VERY subjective and I doubt you would get most people to agree that feminism made their life better. As I guy I can inform you that it has made my life much, much worse. I doubt you would believe me though.
I mean if that’s what you took away from my comment then you misunderstood. Feminism worked well for women, and I’m happy for them. They are the judge on what helps them and what does not. Same way women have that right, I have the right to state that feminism has made life better for women at the expense of men.
If there are women out there fighting for true equality, please note that if your truly fighting for men, you would use the terminology that communicates that the best, by not using the label feminism.