this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2024
783 points (83.7% liked)

Lefty Memes

4006 readers
781 users here now

An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.

Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.

If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.

Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, upvoting good contributions and downvoting those of low-quality!

Rules

0. Only post socialist memes

That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)

1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here

Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.

2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such,

as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.

3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.

That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).

4. No Bigotry.

The only dangerous minority is the rich.

5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.

(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)

6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.

7. Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:

(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] -5 points 1 month ago (3 children)

So I’ve had this issue too, it’s because we can’t agree on the definition.

I use the definition in the dictionary and based on that, US could fall under it, kind of loosely but technically correct.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Umberto Eco's Ur Fascism definition I think is pretty good. Often times, the "dictionary definition" isn't the best definition to use, especially when it comes to topics like political ideologies, which tends to be a bit more complex and nuanced than what can be encompassed in a simple colloquial dictionary definition.

Imma post the ur fascism aspects here.

1."The cult of tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.

2."The rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.

3."The cult of action for action's sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.

4."Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.

5."Fear of difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.

6."Appeal to a frustrated middle class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.

7."Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society. Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.

8.Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak". On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.

9."Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.

10."Contempt for the weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.

10."Everybody is educated to become a hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."

11."Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality".

12."Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people".

13."Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

Edit: numbered

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

I should have scrolled further before replying. IMO you nailed it. Umberto Eco is my go-to whenever this comes up.

[–] Cethin 8 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Which dictionary are you reading? A key component of fascism is a dictatorship. You can argue about controlling oppositional voices or segmentation of society in the US, but a dictatorship is pretty core to fascism in any definition I've seen. And yeah, our voting system sucks that still doesn't make it a dictatorship.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

dictatorship was happening outside their own borders for the longest time. kind of why you guys pay so much money to keep a military almost bigger than every other in the world combined.

inside the us the blacks have seen the boot way more. ask any awake black person if its been a democracy for them.

or ask central, south america, africa and east asia if the repeated coups over the decades are anything less than dictatorial.

[–] Cethin -3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yeah, that's grasping really hard. Even if we assume the it isn't a democracy because voting was unfair, it still isn't a dictatorship because power was being passed around to different people. Also, outside has nothing to do with the definition of a dictatorship.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

its not. look up your own history of installing brutal dictatorships in the aforementioned places.

and of bullying the third world into neoliberal capitalism with very exploitative terms or else. it doesnt matter we have "elections" if the us is the one always calling the shots.

[–] Cethin -1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Dude, that is not fascism. That's imperialism. Those are totally different things and Fascists are not the only imperialists, nor are Fascists imperialist by definition. Fascism is something specific, not just "evil" government.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

they do implement fascism out here. both sides of the same coin.

fascists are the only ones to practice imperialism to nearly this extent after the industrial revolution.

[–] Cethin 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

fascists are the only ones to practice imperialism to nearly this extent after the industrial revolution.

How did you come to this conclusion? This is absolutely made up to make your argument seem stronger than it is.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] Cethin 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Monarchies have been for most of history. I get you put in the stipulation of after the industrial revolution, but still monarchies are top dog. Yeah, Fascists did too, but I'd say the US did more, although you're arguing that the US is fascist, but you're arguing it because the starting point is Fascists are imperialist.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

its just that the worldwide reach of the regime makes it easier to insulate the in-groups from ever seeing any of it happen. for this reason north-americans have a hard time grasping at how miserable you guys are truly making our lives, and how brutal the genocides you sponsor for money and influence truly are.

the genocide and general oppession of brown people outside the imperial core looks very fascist to me, its a step up from just imperialism.

[–] Cethin 2 points 1 month ago

I know perfectly well it's bad. A "step up" from imperialism? It is imperialism, although it's less brutal than historical imperialism. Just look at India under British rule, for example, or the sugar plantation islands under all the imperialists of the past. Imperialism has always been horribly brutal. That doesn't make it all fascist. I don't think many would argue the British monarchy was fascist. It was an imperialist monarchy.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Which dictionary are you reading?

I like Umberto Eco on this one. I'm in my 50s. We've checked many of these boxes throughout my life, and for some others you can point to various moments in our history, many but not all of them recent. Certainly enough to satisfy the meme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#Umberto_Eco

https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html

[–] Cethin 2 points 1 month ago

Yeah, those are traits of fascism, not a definition of fascism. Anyway, yeah the US has met many of them throughout its history. So has almost every other nation. The term is useless if you just call everyone fascist. The US has not met most of them at any one particular time. You can't just take that list and say some traits were met in this period, some others in this other period, etc. and then say they covered all the traits at some point in time so must be fascist. That's not how that works.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I was talking about the forceful oppression of opposition. That is an element that has existed in the US for a long time.

US has had no dictator yet but a president has much more power than a prime minister.

If you consider fascism to be a spectrum, then US has always had these elements. Dictatorship is basically the end of said spectrum.