this post was submitted on 10 Jul 2024
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anarchism

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Anarchism is a social movement that seeks liberation from oppressive systems of control including but not limited to the state, capitalism, racism, sexism, speciesism, and religion. Anarchists advocate a self-managed, classless, stateless society without borders, bosses, or rulers where everyone takes collective responsibility for the health and prosperity of themselves and the environment.

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On the internet I don't see too many Anarchists give arguments past "communism doesn't work because communists are doomed to repeat the same exploitative power structures of the capitalist state" and "we dont know what an anarchist society will look like we gotta wait til we get there!" Which like...is not convincing to me at all. I've engaged in what was supposed to be consensus based decision making systems and there were a ton of flaws, though that's purely anecdotal.

So, I'd really like to have some suggestions on what to read that you think might really challenge where I stand/take anarchism more seriously. It might take me 5 years to get to them bc executive dysfunction but I really want to see if my mind can be changed on if it would be a better system from the get go than communism.

I think it would be super interesting to hear from anyone who shifted into anarchism from Marxism on why it made more sense to you

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (32 children)

"communism doesn't work because communists are doomed to repeat the same exploitative power structures of the capitalist state">

I'd love it if you expanded on this cause i've been on this massively ML dominated space for years and still haven't been convinced that they're not (though i was always an anarchist so that might not matter that much). One of the main function of a state is reproducing it's power, that's why it can't wither away, especially in a world dominated by capitalist mode of production where communist states are forced to develop their productive forces.

"we dont know what an anarchist society will look like we gotta wait til we get there!"

We don't know what a communist society will look like either, mind you, we have blueprints at best. I posted an essay a few weeks ago about revolutionary spain and how anarchists there organized themselves and they definitely were getting there. You can check out Diego Abad de Santilan's writings to see a pretty concrete vision of how they wanted to make things work (though he's somewhat of a pariah cause he joined the revolutionary government, which is, yeah, not very anarchist).

Apart from that Anarchy Works by Peter Gelderloos (it's in the sidebar) is, while a pretty basic, but is another good example that shows why anarchism is anything but idealistic since it shows that the basics of anarchism together or separate were actually laid into praxis tons of times.

One thing to keep in mind tho which i see all the time is that anarchists have a different notion of what a successful revolution is than marxists, since their methods are different and i see this turning into a dick measuring contest still. For anarchists any revolution and any activity that creates stateless bubbles is a success, even if it's crushed in two years. That's why i specifically can't look at the USSR and say it's a success story, because while it existed, the state never withered.

Apart from that, what i think is also a huge and catastrophic misunderstanding is that most MLs still think On Authority is the greatest gotcha ever existed, but in my opinion doesn't do anything apart from conflating authority and force. Anarchists have proven thousands of time since it was written that they are very willing to use force against capitalists and fascists but biting the hand that beats you in itself is not an authoritarian act. What anarchists didn't do is setting up state structures where everyone's every step is monitored and you're encouraged to snitch on your friends and neighbours. Yes, i know we live in a system like that currently as well. That's why i say, from an anarchist standpoint there's no difference.

So yeah two critique's of Engels i've found interesting is this one and this one.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 month ago (10 children)

Are we allowed to have discussion on these points in this thread? Because one thing I never understood is the idea that the socialist projects have to wither away so fast, I never got how anyone thought we were at any time in modern history at a point where the coordination created by socialist States could be torn down safely while preserving the gains made.

With the richest countries in the world and many of their colonies, with all the nukes and military one could imagine, breathing down on your doorstep I don't know how it's rational to think that you should then begin tearing down the structures which were then only created out of historical necessity to fight against these very forces. Do Anarchists (capital A) generally believe that the period for communist parties to prove they can transition towards a classless society has passed, and that they've somehow proven they're incapable? Or do they think that the chance hasn't been available yet but that if it was then communists would then prove themselves incapable of transitioning towards communism?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (9 children)

Anarchists generally think that state communist parties (council communists are a different question) are not capable to lead towards a stateless, classless society, since they want to use state power, whose primary functions include reproducing itself. I'm yet to read any convincing account about how, if we got there, Leninists would start to break down the vehicle they used to defeat capitalism and rallied society around.

If you're asking my opinion, i have much of the same scepticism towards communist parties, but not on an equal level, for example i see much more potential in Latin American left/communist movements than in China. What i differ from most anarchists tho is that i'd be very happy to be proven wrong and generally won't advocate for the overthrow of the CCP in the current context.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

whose primary functions include reproducing itself

Mind expanding on that since it seems like in the us its doing a piss poor job of it. In fact I'd say that a capital dominated state wants to do away with itself via privatization.

Engle's makes a pretty convincing argument that the state arose to mediate class conflict in favor of capital and that it cannot be destroyed until that class conflict is resolved.

Take the landlord tenant relationship. In order for this to exist then the landlord must exercise their property right through state mediated violence and the tenant is offered some rudimentary protections. If the state simply no longer recognized the property right of the land lord the state would wither and class conflict would resolve a bit.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

in the us its doing a piss poor job of it. In fact I'd say that a capital dominated state wants to do away with itself via privatization.

That's not how i see it. From what i see capital still needs and will need in the future the state there to be an enforcer. IMO the ultimate dead end of right wing libertarian theory is this, even when the market's hand is the least tied by the state there will be a need for a force to beat down slave riots. And that's what the state's ultimate power lies in and i don't see it privatized in the future.

So Engels is half right about that, but i'd rather say that negotiating class conflict with violence is one way the state can be used and it doesn't negate that it reproduces it's power itself. The state pulling the rug from under landlords is a good step but in this context imo it's not necessarily withering it just oversees the conflict in a different (better) way - would a tenant yeeting their landlord be arrested? Would landlords have their properties violently seized? These are all good things imo but they don't contribute to the withering of the state, only give it another role. And under communist parties - at least until they get to the point where capitalist forces aren't a threat - it's necessary to have the state as an official enforcer.

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