this post was submitted on 25 Jul 2024
-48 points (12.5% liked)

News

23311 readers
4193 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil


Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.


2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.


Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.


Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.


5. Only recent news is allowed.


Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.


6. All posts must be news articles.


No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.


7. No duplicate posts.


If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.


8. Misinformation is prohibited.


Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.


9. No link shorteners.


The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.


10. Don't copy entire article in your post body


For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] -5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

There you go:

"You can think of total household income, excluding the transfers, as falling by more than 20 cents for every $1 received," wrote Eva Vivalt, a University of Toronto economist who co-authored the study, in a post on X. "This is a pretty substantial effect."

But if those people are working less, the important question to ask is how they spent the extra time—time that was, effectively, purchased by the transfer payments.

Participants in the study generally did not use the extra time to seek new or better jobs—even though younger participants were slightly more likely to pursue additional education. There was no clear indication that the participants in the study were more likely to take the risk of starting a new business, although Vivalt points out that there was a significant uptick in "precursors" to entrepreneurialism. Instead, the largest increases were in categories that the researchers termed social and solo leisure activities.

Some advocates for UBI might argue that the study shows participants were better off, despite the decline in working hours and earnings. Indeed, maybe that's the whole point?

"While decreased labor market participation is generally characterized negatively, policymakers should take into account the fact that recipients have demonstrated—by their own choices—that time away from work is something they prize highly," the researchers note in the paper's conclusion.

If you give someone $1,000 a month so they have more flexibility to live as they choose, there's nothing wrong with the fact that most people will choose leisure over harder work.

"So, free time is good [and] guaranteed income recipients use some of the money to free up time," argued Damon Jones, a professor at the University of Chicago's school of public policy, on X. "The results are bad if you want low-income people to be doing other things with their time, for example working."

Of course, if the money being used to fund a UBI program was simply falling from the sky, policy makers would have no reason to care about things like labor market effects and potential declines in productivity. If a program like this is costless, then the only goal is to see as many individuals self-actualize as much as possible. One person wants to learn new skills or start a business? Great! Others want to play video games all day? Awesome.

In reality, however, a UBI program is not costless and policy makers deciding whether to implement one must decide if the benefits will be worth the high price tag—Yang's proposal for a national UBI, for example, is estimated to cost $2.8 trillion annually.

That's why a study like this one matters, and why it's so potentially damaging to the case for a UBI. A welfare program—which is ultimately what this is—that encourages people to work less and earn less is not a successful public policy. Taxpayers should not be expected to fund an increase in individuals' leisure time, regardless of the mechanism used to achieve it.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago

The actual numbers:

For every $1 given to each of the 1000 test subjects, income dropped by $0.12 cents on average. That means that the overall drop in pay was $12 per month, or less than 2 hours per month, at minimum wage.

Now, let's extrapolate more info from this:

Prior to receiving $1000 per month, the average income was $30,000 per annum , which is ~$14.42 an hour. This means that the average number of hours worked dropped less than an hour a month.

The reporting you are sharing is amazingly biased, with sensationalistic headlines determined to skew views against UBI.

Source for my numbers.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yes, again, I read it. Why do you think that changes what they said?