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Lemmy.world down, probably following the upgrade. A reminder to move to smaller instances for a better experience
(files.catbox.moe)
this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2023
153 points (94.2% liked)
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Lemmy's machine-generated ORM SQL and hand-made flawed PostgreSQL TRIGGER logic is so bad, bloated. The developers on GitHub brag about "high performance". It's unbeliable.
In reality, small instances work because it has so many SQL performance problems that it mostly only is stable with little posts and comments in the database. They dd everything they could to avoid using Lemmy itself to discuss [email protected] topics and hang out on Matrix Chat to avoid using the constantly-crashing servers they created.
If you go to a server with no users creating comments and posts and only has a tiny amount of data, it does crash a lot less.
Oh geez, why would the Lemmy developers want to do any kind of discussions with you over at the [email protected] community, which you moderate?
I see you think that their behavior has only been since June 2, 2023 when I created my account.
The problems with them avoiding Lemmy, "eating their own dog food", to discuss [email protected] have noting to do with me. They hang out on Matrix Chat and do not ask for Rust or PostgreSQL help to their constantly crashing code.
Your style of arguing is to say I wear glasses and have "4 eyes", childish. You obviously can't go see they created a new Rust front-end on Github all on your own .... and that it was not me personally who created GitHub issue 2910 on June 4, 2023 - almost a month before the Reddit API change.,
Is it the pro-China stance that you like about the developers?
Matrix is a better discussion platform than Lemmy, as one is messaging focused, and the other is a message board. Why are you against Matrix? There's nothing to discuss on [email protected] because as far as that community is concerned, it's dead.
You call me childish when you were the one that retaliated against the developers by creating rubbish issues? Ironic.
What's with you and your obsession with China? From how much are accusing people of being pro-china, you sure love being on @lemmy.ml, the instance run by the developers.
Actually they were sincere questions. I am not retaliating. I want to know why they are doing it. But you seem to want to avoid that.
it is disturbing how they are behaving and the cult following they are cultivating by having their servers crash all the time to get donations/etc. It's like someone faking cancer. And you seem to be unable to study the code and see just how easy it was to fix the mistakes they went so far out of their way to not correct.
It is you who thinks such manipulation of an audience, the server installers and the creators of content, is defensible. I watched them cover-up a PostgreSQL question as fast as they could when 0.18.3 report came in on install. It was highly disturbing and bewildering to witness this. Why do they want servers to crash?
It was not crashing every 10 minutes of every day due to SQL TRIGGER code that the developers ignored.
Which also makes... Matrix the better discussion platform? What's your issue against Matrix?
I think Lemmy project creators work 9 to 5, for 4 years, and want to collect money. They do not use Lemmy. That's my point. They prefer Matrix. That's my point. They don't use Lemmy or care that it crashes all the time, they keep adding new features and the server crashing they consider acceptable.
They even brag and boast on Github that lemmy is "high performance", and that it has "full delete" when these are not factually true and it is low-performance code and does not delete, it crashes on delete. Is it their self-deception or the audience they are deceiving, or both?
Again, what's your point? Lemmy belongs to them, they can do whatever they want with it. Don't like it, fork it. What's your goal?
a world where peace, love, and compassion are favored by people and people voluntarily support goodness.
It's become clear that what bothers you so much, what you are trying to do is drive off conversation. You care about the machines delivering your content. I actually care that people have self-awareness in the audience of the media they use. Not have blind faith that "fork it" actually is all that matters, and ignore teachers like Marshall McLuhan or Neil Postman who think it is important consumers of media are able to see how their own brain works instead of thinking "fork it" is all that matters, code.
I think audiences could use a website like Wikipedia to do news, instead they favor websites like Reddiit,, Twitter, Lemmy where the main focus is to sort by NEW and get FRESH "breaking news" without accuracy. A rumor mill of rushed information that is often inaccurate or distorted for the purposes of selling adverting/marketing/product placement. I don't think the cost or "fork it" technology of Wikipedia style sites is the problem, I think the issue is audiences have become addicted to and seek out poor-quality information so they can argue about it. A Wikipedia system with edit history and citations would put an end to too many debates and arguments that people seem to seek on rapid "refresh" social media.
I think humanity has gone from the information age to the disinformation age, and I think it is self-destruction, a major war or other self-destruction brewing.
If you have the answer, and have had it for over a month, create the PR for it. Why is that an insult to you?
If you were, you wouldn't be trying to incite conflict by accusing everyone of being pro-China or pro-CCP, or going off on a rant on America's social media companies.
Well, I'm nice, I don't want to hurt your brain further by engaging in pointless conversation with you.
How the flying spaghetti meatball monster fuck is this relevant to your rant over how you were getting sidelined on GitHub?
Okay, get off Lemmy then, why are you helping the Lemmy developers to the point of hurting your brain? You are nothing but full of contradictory statements. Nothing is keeping you here, if you don't want to be here, leave. It is that simple.
"everyone', yha. You really think Lemmy is "everyone", or you lie and deceive that at least.
I think people are pro-authority in their religion to books about dead people; It doesn't even have to be a living China government. Even the machines or an application code can be what you are loyal to. But they like the power, attracted to even the server crashes, spectacle.
You commanded that I "fork Lemmy", that I code, that hurs my brian too. But you lack comassion and enjoy mocking weakness.
It's funny how you are projecting. You do not want ME here, you keep telling me to leave. If I wanted to leave, i would have left But you seem very confused. Simple flippant dismissal seems to be your approach to complexity.
You are absolutely right, I think you being here is actually hurting you. You already have so much on your plate to deal with, I certainly don't think it's right that you have to shoulder through the pain your brain gets when you type. You should take care of yourself more, and not put yourself through more pain.
What does that mean?
It is doing anything, really. It became much worse in 2019, I still remember when I was more functional and I could write with far less pain.
I don't think you realize that avoding typing does not mean the pain goes away. Even speaking to people is bad, worse in fact, typing has less pain than verbal.
It seems you really want to drive me away instead of actually understand how much I struggle to write and speak.
How? By going from verbal to entirely giving up social interaction and social concerns? What are you suggesting exactly? Being dead?
Do you even know who Neil Postman is, is that why you think nothing is relevant to how Lemmy is run? That would explain why you think it isn't relevant, because you never heard of Neil Postman. He did die decades back, so it wouldn't surprise me. It must be easier for you to jsut give flippant replies "how the flying fukc" instead of actually learning or reading a book from Neil Postman.
"Fork it", "wtf", you like simplistic answers to difficult problems. Clearly you would not spend hundreds of hours testing fLemmy and watching the developers before posting something like I did this past few days. It's really sad to see your total faith and blind faith in action.
I can see why you might have never read something from Neil Postman and responded as if it was off-topic to social media applications and their cultures.
No, why should I know who he is? How is he relevant to how Lemmy is run? How are my replies relevant to whatever Neil Postman wrote? Can you elaborate?
Well, your efforts clearly did not achieve your desired results, so forking the project, and starting your own Lemmy-alternative seems like the logical next step no?
Again, why do you keep bringing up American authors?
For one, I'm in the USA. And you must think Marshall McLuhan is from the USA? He is not.
Marshall McLuhan identified the USA as the world leader in media long ago, and I think his analysis was correct. I don't think it has changed that much in 2023, USA still leads a lot of media types.
On the Internet, you can search. Instead, you go all "WTF" ranting.
No, it isn't logical at all. People have set up Lemmy instances to 'fork" Reddit, and nobody comes. Why set up one more social media site nobody will use because audiences actually seek out what is popular. You seem to think code is all that matters, that quality actually attracts audiences. I suggest teachers like Neil Postman, they really spell this all out. The audience has to develop self-awareness of their compulsive media behaviors. Huxley was far more right than Orwell.
You're the one that brought it up, you can't even be bothered to explain why?
If your fork maintains the ActivityPub protocol, what's the issue? Again you keep bringing up more authors without explaining your reasons for doing so. Do you lack the capability to think for yourself, so you have to idolize authors that have long since passed?
Your entire response seems like "fork it", without anything in advance of that.
Study the project leaders of lemmy, which I have done for hundreds of hours now. Analyze and learn, not JUMP TO "fork it".
Criticize with critical thinking what they are doing. And contribute. Which I have also done. They clearly need to stop letting their anxeity of PostgreSQL be central to the project. There are tutorials on YouTube for example that can be shared. Or Lemmy communities.
It's odd, do you go around telling everyone who criticizes Elon Musk to "fork it" about Twitter instead of actual;y sharing discussion about the problems. You seem to show cult-like loyalty to Lemmy and intend to run-off factual criticism. I've seen people behave that way towards Elon Musk too.
Wow. Who stole your candy?
Cambridge Analytica in 2014 seems to have turned much of the online population attitude to that of dismissing human beings in favor of memes and disinformation. and the player who seeded anti-vaccination topics since 2013 on the Internet, that was documented in 2018 by John Hopkins university. my "candy" would have been teachers like Carl Sagan having enough students in the population that junk information wasn't saturation... but since 2014 junk just seems to keep growing and expanding.
You're rocketderp based on your instability I'm guessing? Looks like your the only one that is nonsensical in that thread. Your PR isn't a PR. You were rushing to someone that was being helpful but you still acted like a child with your advise of GitHub bugs and PRs and not using them properly. The other person in agreement with you at least is calm and rational. I'm guessing you never worked on a group project before or have had anyone disagree with you. Your commits broke the pipeline. Someone even tried calling you down, but you wouldn't listen.
You aren't the victim here. You're the bully.
Yes. My name is Stephen Alfred Gutknecht. It is clearly detailed here on my profile that I am "RocketDerp" on GitHub.
Issue 2910? The word "nonsense" is being discussed about a Lemmy TRIGGER on June 4, 2023.
You would be guessing wrong. Since late 2019 I am in constant mental anguish and barely surviving. My communications is a constant struggle and I openly disclose this so that it is understood, I am not attempting to cover it up.
The "i'm guessing" game. And I note you can't actually cite the Github issues by number (2910) or keep details here in fact. A lot of "guessing" going on.
"guessing" again. Should I guess you do not know how difficult or easy it is to remove a TRIGGER in PostgreSQL that is causing server crashes?
Why do you think this is about "me"? I haven't donated money to the project or had blind faith in the developers.
I'm beyond frustrated that they seem to be going so far out of their way to have servers crash that their motives for doing so need explanation. "Social hazing" is the best answer I can come up with. I've now outright asked why they are dong it, because the pattern of behavior with trying to let server crashes has been going on now for months.
I have to admit that it's amazing the number of people they have attracted with the server crashing. It's been a social experience in some ways like Elon Musk is doing with Twitter. Perhaps it bothers me when other people actually seem to enjoy it. That seems to be the hiveMind reaction here. In that sense, if it is "social hazing", it has worked very well.
No.
The feature you suggest be ripped out is one that many people like. I've seen people say they hate Mastodon because "Likes" are only counted on the local server and they feel it's useless. You can't just suggest rip it out without a fix in its place.
Do we even know the read/write operations of the database are what's pulling it down when it crashes? Sure it's not the best code I've seen, but on large instances it still manages quite the uptime. Without insight into the cause of the crashes, you can't honestly say "this, this right here." Could it help? Probably. Do you need to suggest someone enjoys murdering people because they don't immediately implement something? Probably not.
Just because you can't think of another reason why they didn't listen to you, it doesn't mean that the one you thought of is correct. That's not how logic works. It's narcissistic to believe that you can think of every explanation for something that's happening.
ok, I've come to terms. I posed an apology just now on github, and I apologize to you.
I see now that people value the social outcomes of how they run the project far more than I realized.
I didn't say anything, I was entirely silent, when the June 4 2023 issue 2910 was opened. So I don't grasp why you think this is all about me. I never thought this was about me. The June 30 Reddit API deadline was what I thought this was all about when I was witnessing this.
I didn't do pull request and add a new developer in the mix in June because it was such an easy problem to fix. It was when on June 13 that they still had not responded to the June 4 issue 2910 and did hardware upgrades on lemmy.ml that I started to interpret the situation differently. Instead of responding to Issue 2910 on Github, that same day on June 13 I started organizing Lemmy-specific PostgreSQL instructions on [email protected] because servers were crashing even after the hardware upgrades.
I now realize, today, that my whole approach to this comes from experience running PostgreSQL in "mission critical" applications. What I have done with DB/2 and PostgreSQL wasn't driven by social loyalty and "Taking on the Big Guys of Reddit and Twitter" that happens here. I've been all wrong to think that the developers don't know exactly what they are doing. It's like criticizing Hollywood for spending 3 million dollars on sets and clothes for 90 seconds of a film. I should have realized I was not understanding that social media sites run by social behavior models, not by technology concerns.
Elon Musk has done wild things since he took over Twitter and I didn't take it so personal. I guess it was my memories and personal experience with PostgreSQL that haunted me too much. I was wrong. And i see how the lemmy community is loyal, so I can see just how wrong I am about the choices being made.
You jumping to politics and weird accusations of folks supporting murder as being the only reason they didn't fix a postgres bug because, by your own words, you couldn't think of any other reason.
You clearly have issues communicating and you are admittedly self aware yet you refuse to ever believe maybe those issues are the root of your arguments.
I could list 50 reasons I could think of. Many of which would be even more offensive. I didn't sit patiently by watching June 4 issue 2910 go ignored because I was trying to over-react. In fact, I couldn't believe what I was seeing as they upgraded hardware June 13 and continued to ignore the June 4 issue on Github. Even further when June 30 deadline for Reddit API came.
I have been very wrong in how I dealt with it this past 10 days, as I did not come to understand how much the community has come to enjoy the environment of Lemmy. Talking to you has enlightened now just how socially driven the whole platform is and that any training and experiences I have running mission-critical apps with PostgreSQL and DB2 on production servers do not apply here and I should have realized just how wrong my social interpretation of the situation has become.
It's like watching the recent Nolan film release of Oppenheimer on IMAX. The massive size of the platters and how projectors have run into problems on opening night / first few days of showings. It's about the style and cool factors, just because Lemmy uses PostgreSQL I considered reliability to be important, but now I clearly see I socially failed to understand how much the community here has come to adore Lemmy history and progression.
Rock Stars being criticized about their style and use of the technology was a huge mistake on my part. It's all about putting on entertainment people like and the fans of the project are loyal to how it is done. I have been far too slow to recognize the "cool factor" of the Rock Star cultivation happening in front of me. I'm worried about the tire engine maintenance costs on an exotic sports car that draws huge crowds. Sorry I did not grasp that the crowds were so enamored and how that drives the project choices.
Heavy drinking, first time since New Years, reset my brain and I now re-interpret everything I learned about Lemmy history in a new light.
You're spamming this all over this thread. Why don't you go create a PR instead? If you think you have a better solution then go discuss it with the people who have the full context and try to get it fixed instead of complaining here.
It's amazing how you have fallen hook line and sinker into believing that the problem is difficult to solve. It's the agenda that is the problem.
They have people like you who will not read actual code to see that they only care about the fact that "Rust is cool programming language" and crashing code doesn't get any priority.
They even started a new front-end Rust application this month, because they don't care to bother with the core of the site, PostgreSQL doing INSERT and SELECT statements to load comments.
If the problem is easy to solve, then go solve it, open a PR, and come back here once you've done so.
If you're going to signal that something needs to be done, and you want people to join you in supporting that belief, then actually put something forward that people can get behind. What would me getting angry alongside you actually accomplish? If there was a PR then the community could go and say "Here is a solution, here's why we think it's worth merging" and a discussion could actually be had.
Instead you're just giving rhetoric about how they don't want to solve this without any evidence, actually creating a PR and having it rejected would be all the anyone needs to see to support your opinion, so go do it.
I've have merged PR's in the Lemmy repos. Don't assume you know anything about me or my position, because you don't. I don't have any particular stance on Rust and if this is actually an issue it's one I'd like to see resolved, so go open a PR and get the conversation started instead of whinging here.
Are you referring to this repo that Dessalines forked and hasn't made a single commit against? That hardly seems like they're abandoning the current frontend and more like a dev messing around with various tech as we all do.
If you know what's wrong, and you know how to fix it, then either put up or shut up. Go make a PR and fix the problem and show us that they rejected the PR because they're not interested in improving performance. There's folks like Phiresky actually making meaningful contributions to the backend to help improve Postgre performance, something both dessalines and nutomic have said they're not well experts in. Be like Phiresky, actually put your code where your mouth is.
Lastly, I don't know if you were aware of this, but the Lemmy devs don't owe you anything. Even less so if you're not actually contributing code or money to help move this project forward.
Why... That isn't going to get in installed on the servers they are running. I failed to see that this is a "Rock Star" culture, and the audience does not interpret months of Issue 2910 getting no attention as a problem. There are social forces that are non-technical, and I wildly misinterpreted the situation. You personally have really made the case to me just how wrong I am. Again, I am sorry I made such a fuss and misunderstood.
Why... That isn't going to get in installed on the servers they are running. I know the change was not difficult for anyone to do. I failed to see that this is a "Rock Star" culture. Look at how you know them by names, and how much you respect that. I just didn't appreciate the 4 years of style and fashion so fully.
Such an interesting discussion. Do you believe Reddit owes you something? Do you believe Linux owes you something? Such a interesting topic.
This has nothing to do with rockstar culture and everything to do with the fact that you're spending 10x the amount of typing complaining about an issue than it would have taken you to just go and fix it and be done with this. So either you don't want it fixed because you prefer to complain and die on your sword, or you don't know how to fix it.
Either way I'm done with the conversation. If there is actually an issue I expect someone else who is actually levelheaded and reasonable will identify it and submit a PR. Because that's how you improve open source software, not by throwing tantrums and making wild assumptions about peoples agendas. Go touch grass or something.
Then I'm confused, because that was my own idea.
I'm no longer complaining, you convinced me, I love them like Rock Stars now and I have formally apologized and explained how wrong I was in my thinking because of my past memories of running mission-critical PostgreSQL servers. Are we clear now? It's all about Style and Fashion, and I got way too worked up about crashes.
I don't get this. Why are you making it about me? Do you think I am the one who opened GitHub issue 2910? Is that your accusation? That I created a fake account and opened issue 2910? I was not worried about me. Even in June I was not worried about me personally. I was worried about the person who opened the issue, is that understandable to you?
I was worried about Reddit users encountering server crashes. This isn't about one person, me. This is about thousands of people and a June 30 deadline.
But 12 hours ago, I have turned direction. I did not realize just the kind of culture and "Rock Star" attitude that was going. I was focused on Reddit June 30, and I didn't see that the social conventions were far more important than server crashes. It was a mistake for me to be worried so much about data and crashes when that isn't the culture here. I am finding everything thinks it is "cool" and "fine" that it took over a month for 2910 to be resolved. I never expected that, it was me who was socially out of touch.
I really got lost socially and regret my attitude problem. I should have learned back in March with Elon Musk running Twitter now, that the rules for social media cultures are vastly different than my measures for what would consider to be "cool" regarding a server crash issue. Not one person has said that 2910 should have been addressed within 3 or 4 days of being created. So I know now that it is me who has to change.
Do you think the issue isn't fixed or something? This is a postmortem discussion. You seem confused. Or do you think some other confusion, like I'ts about me personally in Issue 2910?