this post was submitted on 22 Sep 2024

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We lost Keanu (mander.xyz)

submitted 2 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[+] [email protected] -27 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I don't see how getting more people interested in ancient history and geology is a bad thing. Part of the reason Graham has the wiggle room to make the claims that he makes is that the subject is relatively unstudied.

Obviously there is actual science taking place in the field and has been forever but funding for that kind of thing is notoriously difficult to come by compared to many other fields. Getting grants to study the distant past for essentially no reason other than curiosity is not a priority within an economic system that prioritizes profit over all else. The best way to break through that particular obstacle is getting more people to pay attention and ask questions. If we need a benign conspiracy theory about "big geology" hiding the truth from us to make that happen then where's the harm in that? The vast majority of people prone to conspiratorial thinking are already farther down that rabbit hole than Hancock's ideas will take them.

Additionally, actual scientists would do well to learn something from Graham about presentation. Despite what you may think of him, the way he talks about the subject resonates with people. People don't want hear a regurgitation of facts in a research paper. Speculate a bit and get people excited about your future work. You don't need to go to the extremes that he does but don't refuse to branch out from what can be conclusively proven today either. Talk about your theories and what you're hoping to find / learn just as much as you talk about the results of your research.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

"What if every star was a human soul?" is not an interesting astronomy question to get people into astronomy. "Big Astronomy" not awarding grants to study that, is not a conspiracy. It's due diligence.

Using a platform to say "What if [random speculation that has no basis and can't be tested]" is not useful science outreach. It's someone pretending to be science-y.

A person's sole redeeming aspect being "being an engaging speaker" doesn't make them a useful object lesson, it makes them yet another snake oil salesman. That's not new or unique. That's being a charlatan. Which is what people don't like about Graham.

[+] [email protected] -13 points 2 months ago (2 children)

You're ignoring the interesting questions he asks in favor of the easy to hand wave away stuff and that's exactly what I'm talking about. To be clear, I'm not defending the things he says. I'm pointing out that his more outlandish theories gain more traction because the scientific community doesn't lean into the softballs and use them as an opportunity to both teach people actual science and understand what different groups of people want to learn about.

Ignore the star / soul example and focus in on the possibility of an ancient and semi advanced civilization existing. That's the part grabbing people's attention. Talk about what that would change about our understanding of the past and what sort of evidence we would expect to find if it were true. Showcase people working in related fields and what they have found already. Propose other locations we could look for that evidence and discuss other topics we could study while looking for that evidence in those places. Engage the curiosity, don't dismiss it. Anyone listening to Graham is likely uneducated in science but interested in it so use that as your jumping off point instead of judging those people for not being farther down the path.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (3 children)

That idea is just as ridiculous.

If you want an entertaining, well researched rebuttal from an actual archeologist, check this playlist:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXtMIzD-Y-bMHRoGKM7yD2phvUV59_Cvb

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Milo's gonna have so much fun with season 2.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

And possibly a drinking problem afterwards

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

lol I just watched them all last week. awesome videos. what a coincidence

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Lots of things people are interested in could reasonably be described as ridiculous by someone educated in the field. Why is it so hard for you to see those topics as a conversation starter rather than basically calling people idiots for wanting to learn about something?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Because while he dresses it up as scientific theories, he's just spewing unfounded conspiracy theories?

Because this stuff is a conversation starter in the same way that "the moon landing was staged", "the earth is flat" and "chemtrails turn the frogs gay" is?

Because instead of actual scientific education or archeological documentaries, this is the shit that gets funded? Because who knows how many people will now believe that his fanfiction of a theory is a legitimate interpretation of humanity's history?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come off as condescending, I really don't. But his entire "documentary" is deeply unserious at best, and an outright lie at worst.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Star Trek is attention grabbing. It doesn't mean we should depend on time travel to save the whales. Not being able to separate fantasy from reality is not a scientific viewpoint. Actual education about any of this would be steering away from it, not into it.

The answer to all questions about advanced ancient civilizations existing is "probably not". There are interesting examples that push back the earliest evidence of some things, like the Antikythera mechanism, but the only thing that is evidence of is that gears are older than previously thought. "Could there have been an ancient globe spanning civilization that only used wood or was on Antarctica or for some other reason has surviving no evidence?" is the same level of question as "Could there be a Discworld?". The infeasibility of proving a negative is not the same as "yes this existed".

Ancient Aliens level speculation on ancient civilizations is religion without a sacred text, inventing fantasies of a utopian past out of whole cloth because of an imagined fragment of a thread.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Star Trek is a great example of what I'm talking about actually. How many legitimate scientists do you think are out there right now who either had their interest in science first sparked by or at least significantly influenced from watching some version of Star Trek? I would bet it is a lot of them. Not every concept in Star Trek is worth diving into from a scientific perspective but not trying to do that at all would be a huge mistake.

Now, Graham Hancock isn't writing Star Trek but people listen to what he's saying for the same basic reasons they watch Star Trek. They are curious about a science based approach to the world. They don't know he's exaggerating some things and taking other things out of context. Use the opportunity to teach them.

In other words, don't call them idiots for watching Star Trek, start a conversation about space travel.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

You are describing Indiana Jones. Graham is talking about getting funding for what is effectively Crystal Skull research. These are not opposing sides of the same coin. Ancient Apocalypse is not an outreach program for more general archeology funding.

This is not about calling the people watching the show idiots. It's about Graham and his ilk being more beholden to their pet stories than actual research and trying to convince people that they are the One True Archeologist.

A conspiracy theorist complaining about how "the establishment" won't take him seriously is not a gateway to people seeking out education. It's an avenue for those people to mistrust actual research in a field because it doesn't mesh with their preconceived notions. Much like Flat Earthers the problem is not a simple misunderstanding that will self correct. It's a belief that the "Truth" is being hidden for nefarious purposes because a story is more intriguing than knowledge.

This is not how people get more interested in Archeology, or whatever discipline, or what drives funding for that discipline. This is what cuts budgets and drives people away because "the establishment is a hidebound in-crowd."

[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

It's not understudied.
It causes us problems when we do try to educate people.
We'd do better with funding to do these kinds of things. It's very expensive to do it right.

I'm not one for Joe Rogan, but cannot recommend the interview with Handcock and Flint Dibble enough if you want to see how quickly his narratives fall apart. The real story is a lot cooler anyway.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

May I ask for an interesting archeological piece/story?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Go listen to the podcast.