this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024
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Asklemmy
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Remember that in online spaces (and IRL in reality), there are astro-turf/sock puppet accounts that will make claims to sway public opinions.
yeah, mostly CIA and Israeli bots/paid posters. all of reddit is astroturfed. All social media is controlled by the feds as well. Look into the twitter leaks to see how they do it. Mintpressnews also has great articles about feds in censorship positions in all these social media companies ranging from Facebook to TikTok (100% CIA controlled btw).
Is there any evidence of these CIA/Israeli bots / paid posters?
If somebody makes a pro-Israel post, maybe they just genuinely support Israel (I wouldn't say that's my view currently - I think both Israel and Hamas are wrong because both have killed civilians).
Good point. Although, I would question whether Lemmy is such a place as we really don’t have the numbers to warrant the effort, imo.
We get drug spam and stock spam, no reason to expect that political spam is any less likely.
Lemmy has a huge amount of hardcore lefty's. If you can get them to not vote, and especially if you can get them to tell their friends not to vote, that is a big win.
Astroturfing/sockpuppeting is dirty cheap to do, so no reason not to try.
You do see some users here that will post continously on about a certain topic repeatedly, with no other opinions. They might be legit, but I have my suspicions.
"Hardcore lefties" have a very different understanding of the value of their vote, which is to say, it means very little.
Have you deigned to ask them questions?
takes no effort with modern technology
It is not currently such a place. I’ve yet to hear a Lemmy admin say otherwise.
Edit to add: Russiagate conspiracy theorists want it to be true so they can simply dismiss voices that contradict their beliefs.
I disagree - it feels like Lemmy is seeing the same kind of shills that 4chan saw in the last several elections. These bad actors are trying to sway dems to vote third party or not vote at all "in protest" across many small and large online spaces.
Are the shills in the room with us right now?
Yes, in fact I see one now.
Interesting. What am I shilling for? What are my real opinions? What are the fake ones I'm presenting?
Your real opinions are the ones I like, and your fake opinions are the ones I don’t. It’s not rocket surgery.
Obviously a huge genocide isn't enough for you - you clearly want Every Palestinian to be killed or imprisoned when Trump is elected. And not just the ones in Gaza, if I were a Palestinian in the US, I'd be terrified of that madman winning, and I'd do everything I could to support Harris like my life depended on it (because it very well might)
More generally you are trying to convince us that the genocide is the only important issue in the world, and that it's somehow worth not supporting someone who is in all ways (not just all other) the far better of the two electable candidates.
Please do your best to act in good faith and not lie about me.
No, that is what you, a non-Palestinian, believe you get to decide for Palestinians, people who have lost half or more of their family in the last year. The Palestinian diaspira, generally speaking, rejects Biden and Harris.
However, you have not answered my questions.
Now you are downplaying the magnitude of genocide. Never again means never again for anyone, not just when it is politically convenient for you.
Welp, looks like you didn't answer my questions. Maybe next time, right?
To be lies or even bad faith, I'd have to not actually believe what I wrote. And I very much believe what I wrote.
Do they now? (A small sample. Some of those are about the ones still in Gaza, but I don't think that detracts from the point.)
Fine. Here are your questions and my genuine answers.
I think you are likely a shill for Donald Trump. I don't assume it's directly, as in I don't assume you are being paid by the GOP or a super PAC, but wouldn't be surprised if someone was paying you.
Hard to say. At best (unlikely) I think you have been very strongly misled into thinking that's somehow what's best for the country, or even the world. Otherwise I think you know fully what you are doing and the damage it may cause and you are fine with that. This is what I believe based on the comments I've seen from you.
That you care about the genocide. I think you are using it as a wedge to try to divide and mute the Democrat vote.
Not at all. That was the first thing I addressed: if Harris loses it will be so much worse in Gaza and elsewhere.
Given that you simply made up some bullshit, telling me that you actually really believe it would mean you have basically no grasp on reality. You can't tell the difference between your imagination and what's real, allegedly.
Personally, I think you do know the difference.
A handful of somewhat misleadingly presented quotes from people selected through an unstated process. Literally no context for who most of them are. Many if the quotes have little to do with what you are talkjng about. And then a series of unsourced narratives about what people are thinking.
This is an incoherent read that follows a particular propaganda style but mostly comes across as incompetent.
"An informal canvasing in Gaza".
This follows the same style but by a more competent writer. It is timed for the "honeymoon" period PR push for Harris.
Democrats organized a letter from a handful of people, some of which were Pslestinian Americans. Amazing. The article does not even link the letter. Here is the link. Note that they included "Progressive Democrats" and "Community Leaders". Perhaps you are unfamiliar with tokenizing PR strategies. If you look into the signatories, you will find an array of Democratic Party functionaries either working for the Party itself, an elected official of the party, or someone at the top of a Democratic Party - associated NGO. Far from a representation of community, this is the usual suspects in a PR push from party formations. They do this for all kinds of things.
It is like this is your first time learning about journalism and PR.
Ahahahahahaha
Then by definition I am not a shill.
I work against the genocide and have for over a year, doing organizing work. Folks like yourself have been excysing and normalizing genocide because your team is doing it.
So, wrong on all counts. Damn, did you know that words mean things and pulling things out of your as isn't knowledge?
You did literally diwnplay the genocide, trying to say it is just one issue among many and that I'm being silly to make such a big deal out of it.
Begone, liar for genocide.
I could very well be wrong about you, but I was led there by the evidence of your comments. Don't want to be thought of as a shill, then don't act like one.
Eh. I don't usually involve myself with threads like this, so I am indeed much less experienced arguing them and finding good sources. It's certainly not my job. Anyway, this was in response to you saying that the Palestinians 'generally' disregard Biden/Harris, I think that is still questionable. And even if the majority do, way over half the US is failing to vote for their own interests (because non-voting counts) so that unfortunately would not be too surprising.
Nice comeback.
You think my inability to know what you Really believe (as opposed to what you write) makes you not a shill? Sorry, I'm not able to follow that logic.
My team is not great on this count, but the other team (and yes there are only two this election) is so much worse that's it's not even funny.
Trying to convince people to not vote for the only candidate that has a very slight chance of not supporting Israel as much really bothers me. It's not ideal, but there is no better example I've seen of the perfect being the enemy of the good.
Same.
Faced with a contradiction, did you decide to address it? Nah, just repeat yourself, that will work.
I hope that you someday have the courage of your convictions.
Right you posted some bullshit and clearly did zero media criticism. Is this your way of acknowledging what I criticized? Do you see my point in my responses? What do you think about articles that just provide you a few quotes without rhyme or reason (except that supports a narrative implicitly), and then tell you the narrative to support? Do you think party-associated NGOs are representative of the people?
I helped turn out more Palestinians to act action from weeks ago than there are people on that last list.
The term I used was reject. They are very aware of the Biden-Harris regimes genocide of their people. They do not disregard the murderers of their families.
You obviously have zero familia with this topic. We both know you hastily Googled your three links. I wonder if you even read them. Instead of making guesses and believing them and then fighting poplee to defend, why don'tyou get involved with some local anti-genoxide groups? Or at least just be honest. Remember, you actually started this topic by saying most support Harris, which was clearly pulled out of your ass.
The most defining aspect of US voters is that they routinely vote against their own interests. They are awash in a sea of propaganda and PR and false consciousness that scapegoats immigrants for problems created by CEOs and the economic system.
You can't ask me to take what you said seriously.
I think you don't know what a shill is. Look it up. It is not "someone that advocates for something". It is a person that pretends to believe or push something they don't so that they can push something else.
I am obviously sharing my opinions and honestly advocating consistently for my position. Comoare this to your evasiveness and doubling down in things you made up on the spot.
There is no worse than genocide. And your team has been excellent at excusing and normalizing it, such as what you are doing right now in your attempt to attack me for rejecting your genocide. If Trump were in office I would probably see you in the street. Because Biden is in office, you are here defending it.
Yeah duh that is why you are lying about me. You have been scratched by the prospect that someone would doubt your lesser-evil-for-genocide position that has given you license to support these monsters and harass those who don't.
Your lesser evil logic is self-defeating and irrational. Given that you have spent so little time critically evaluating it, I expect you to adopt an anti-genocide stance until you are politically literate just like you would if your family was facing these crimes.
Never again means never again for anyone. It is happening now. Are you going to fight it or support it?
Genocide is not good. Do I need to explain this to you?
I don't lie. "I'm rubber you're glue" doesn't work when only one of us is acting like this.
There are, but not on Lemmy, because Lemmy is still much too small to bother with.
Yeah like all of these people out here telling me to vote for genociders. There's no way that real humans would think so little of Palestinian lives, right?
Right?
And who, of those who aren't mathematically precluded by the flawed system we are currently stuck with from having a chance at winning, can you vote for that isn't about to help Isreal with their genocide? Trump is even more favorable towards that policy than Biden is, and while Harris isn't Biden, it seems hard to imagine she'd be much worse than current administration on that issue. One of the reasons to vote for Harris is because, despite all her administration would likely do there, having her in office would almost certainly result in fewer Palestinian deaths than Trump would.
Suppose you have two buttons. If you press one, it kills someone. If you press the second, it kills two people. If you don't press the first button, someone else is eagerly waiting who will press the second. Whoever has placed the buttons here, has enough power that neither the buttons nor the other person are within your personal ability to harm at the moment, and you have neither the time nor the popularity to amass enough people to change this before the other guy pushes the "kill two people" button. Your only options are to press one or press neither and allow the second be pressed. If your answer to this scenario is "I press neither button, because pressing the first kills someone, don't you care about people's lives!?", then you are not choosing morality, you are choosing selfishness, because you care more about the notion that your hands will be clean than about the net life saved if you press the button that kills fewer people. In fact, the blood is as much on your hands by inaction if you decide to reject your choice, as it would be had you killed the additional victim yourself.
Current dead baby count would disagree
You know how you can trick a stupid fucking child into doing what you want by presenting them a false choice of two alternatives you're happy with? "Do you want to go to bed now or after one more show?"
So what are the other choices?
Just because you can't stop something doesn't mean you have to participate in it. But if you wanted to do something about it: these weapons come from this country and they have to get there in trucks traveling on roads to ports that load them on ships. And it's not like there's not a value to making genocide come with electoral consequences...
Not voting is a choice. You can't not participate in politics.
We are discussing voting, though. That's a bit tangential, because you can vote or not vote and still commit acts of... resistance...
If you otherwise would have voted Dem against the Republicans, who are as bad or worse when it comes to the specific issue you're punishing the Dems for, you are hurting one group committing genocide by helping one who commits and wants to commit even more genocide.
All under the mistaken belief that by refusing to vote for the group you would otherwise vote for, you will get them to move Left. But if the Dems lose to the VERY right wing party, if the voting shows that Americans favor more right-leaning policies, they would move to gain the votes of the people who actually voted.
The reality is, refusing to vote is still a choice. As long as you are an adult who can legally vote in the US election, you are partly responsible for the results of the election. You don't get to wash your hands of it. Choosing to abstain because you don't want to partipate out of moral self-righteousness is saying your soapbox is more important than the lives affected by your choices, from the Palestinians to the Ukrainians, immigrants to LGBTQ. Nobody is more important than your ability to say "I didn't vote for a party that commit genocide."
Don't project your dumb shit on me
wooooooooow no shiiiiiiiiiit
You mean I'm exercising agency right now? You don't saaaaaaaayyyyyyy.
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds. "Virtue signalling" you say?
You're a nazi. You're giving material support to the perpetrators of a genocide. You're trash. Diminishing basic morality as a vice just like any other fucking 8chan fascist. Trash.
Smirking fucking nazi invoking "the lives affected by your choices" and "washing your hands" like the worst crime in history isn't hanging behind you as you say that shit.
You're fucking trash.
What liberal brain rot is this?
Biden is fully engaging with his policy of genociding Palestinians. Harris has said that she will carry on with the policy with absolutely no change.
The fucking dissonance you people walk around with is astounding!
And before you come out with the usual other shit floating around your vacuous head, no, I'm not advocating voting for the shitty pants trust fund rapist.
You people cannot seem to grasp that what is being done in the Levant will be done to you. The DOD had just updated it's rules so they can use lethal force against you.
It's coming and you'll are too fucking partisan to realise that you're turkeys all voting for Christmas!
Fucking brain broken if you think the bots are on the side opposite entrenched power