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Wait-a-minute Wednesday: To draw attention towards a situation or decision which bares further scrutiny.
For example: the crew of the Defiant not stopping Captain Sisko from committing acts of terrorism in order to prevent other atrocities being carried out by the Maquis.
So let's dig up the decidedly bone-head commands made by any characters throughout the Continuum, aside from the tried and true Tuvixian methodology. Or do, just provided there's a fresh/skewed take to be had.
Everything about The Inner Light's probe is stupid:
• It is designed to transmit its information to one person, one time. This person could be an imbecile who is working for a salvage operation. The person could be evil. The person could die immediately after it happens and no one would ever know. It destroys itself after a one-time use, meaning that the information cannot be preserved by other people experiencing it and sharing what they found out.
• It shows one snapshot of a culture that is going to die out from one perspective on one place on the planet and gives no regard to the culture's obviously rich history. The planet also probably had more than one culture, although monoculture is a thing in Star Trek.
• It gives the person who is experiencing the lifetime no way to record what is going on as it happens.
• They could have at least added a summary text to the probe to let everyone else know what is going on.
• They could also have added any other information about their culture(s) in text. Anything. At all.
• They could have also included A BOOK INSTEAD OF A FUCKING FLUTE.
• It wasn't even a very interesting flute. It could have been ornately carved or something. Maybe even carvings of what the people who made those flutes looked like? Which reminds me-
• THEY COULD HAVE INCLUDED A PICTURE OF THEMSELVES.
The Pioneer plaque is a more useful transmitter of information about a species than that probe.
Beautiful episode in terms of a storyline but really stupid in terms of a plot device.
Been waiting to get that one out of your system for a bit, haven't ya? And entirely justified. Their culture doesn't deserve to be remembered if they think in such arbitrarily limited terms. No primer, no back-up, no alternatives.
Oh I rant about that episode all the time because everyone else is constantly gushing over it and the bad plot device annoyed me then and annoys me now. Absolutely a tour de force for Patrick Stewart, but it just gets to me every time.
Edit: Now I'm even more annoyed than I was before because there's a really easy way to fix it- the enterprise salvages all that is left of a much larger probe that is destroyed in some way or other and that is what gives Picard the experience. In other words, there were a lot of other memorials of their civilization, it's just that is the only one that survived. And then it dies because it was running out of power after being separated from the rest of the probe and burns out and can't be restored because Treknobabble. There. Fixed pretty much every problem.
Like the obelisks in Mass Effect?
Never played it, I'm afraid.
Fantastic games!
This quote summarizes the Resikans’ entire rationale and their rebuttal to your argument. First of all, I believe the probe was intelligent and it targeted Picard because he was a leader among his people (being captain of a starship). Secondly:
This is how they wanted to be remembered!
Not as some pile of artifacts and writings collecting dust in the back room of some museum — one dead civilization among countless others — but as living, breathing people. That’s what’s so profound about it! They reached across time and space and managed to get a single person to care and care very deeply about them.
Look at all the other artifacts Picard collected as an archaeologist. They’re important to him but for the wrong reason: they’re trophies of his intellectual curiosity. The Resikan flute is so far above that. It’s his most treasured possession because it stirs in him the memories of a people he truly loved.
Absolutely nothing in the episode suggested that.
They won't be remembered when Picard is dead. And what little he could write down was, again, about one snapshot of one culture on their planet at one point in what was probably at least thousands of years of history. When he dies, most of their history dies with them. He could write down what he remembered and that's it. Picard can't even show what they looked like accurately. Maybe he can make a realistic drawing- based on his faulty human memory. That's it.
So if that's how they want to be remembered, they're idiots.
That changes nothing about what I said about the probe being a stupid plot device and the fact that they could have added any sort of cultural information to their flute.
I think it's hard to believe that the civilization was able to build spacecraft that could transmit mental imagery that realistic but not be bothered etch images and text into a metal flute before their civilization went kablooey. Or absolutely anywhere on the probe.
Even Superman's parents included more than just him in the spacecraft.
How many long-extinct human cultures do you care about like they’re your own family?
What difference does that make?
All the difference. We’re talking about the values of a people who knew they were dying. You called them idiots for wanting to be remembered by a person who actually cared about them. I think if you ask most people they’d rather be remembered by their loved ones than have their life recorded as a bunch of artifacts in a museum.
According to their values, their probe succeeded wildly in a way that nearly all other extinct cultures failed. The only other ones to come close were those aliens that hid their own humanoid DNA in the genetics of all the major civilizations. Even then, those aliens didn’t succeed at getting anyone to care about them the way Picard cared about the Resikans.
TLDR: no one cares about a bunch of crap people leave behind when they die. Go to an estate sale and see.
Edit: if you have a few hours to kill, watch this video. Then come back and continue the discussion.
I'm calling them idiots because they won't end up being remembered. Because Picard is not immortal.
They wanted one person to remember them. All the other extinct cultures had none!
Anyway, suppose they had made the probe infinitely reusable as long as you hooked it up to a power source. Then it would’ve turned into a Disney ride, totally cheapening the experience. Do you see what I’m getting at?
You're getting at the fact that the whole thing is a stupid plot device for a poignant episode and it makes no sense. "All the other extinct cultures had none" especially makes no sense considering the probe used itself on a guy who's hobby was learning about what extinct cultures left behind.
I'm sorry, nothing you have said makes the probe a better idea to memorialize a civilization than the carved plaque we put on the Pioneer probe. Because everyone can see the plaque and learn about us that way. And even if we had the same technology as the probe, we, and they, could do both.
I don't think you are getting the idea that a memorial space probe for an entire species that went extinct right after making the probe without a single piece of text on it is nonsense.
Did you watch the video I linked about nutmeg? We actually have real life examples of cultures going extinct in real time. The Bandanese people are witnessing the death of their own language as it happens. What upsets them the most is that their own children don’t speak their language. They could not care less about memorials to their language in some institute of language in the capital city.
That’s the whole genius of The Inner Light. They reached out across the vastness of space and time and taught Picard what it really meant to be a person living on their planet, in their culture. No stupid memorial plaque or other token could achieve that.
It’s not the piece of pottery that matters! It’s the people making it. Their lives and their experiences.
Nothing that you have said at any point justifies the lack of text and images. Languages die out because of a lack of text. Are you trying to say they didn’t invent writing but invented psychic space probes?
Languages die when people stop speaking them. They cannot be revived from written records. People still study Latin today but it will forever be a dead language because the chain of speakers was broken. The same goes for culture, for which language is a part. You cannot preserve a culture after all of its native practitioners are gone.
What the Resikans did was to preserve their own culture by giving Picard a life on their planet. Through his experiences he became the last living member of their culture. The profound grief he shows and his reluctance to talk about it is exactly what we would expect from the last survivor of a dying culture.
Unfortunately, Picard has no way to preserve their culture because he cannot recreate their entire way of life. No amount of writings or other artifacts can do that.
This is what we see all over the world with indigenous cultures that are dying off. They cannot be saved by scientists studying them and writing everything down and cataloguing all the art they’ve made. Just as you can’t save a species from extinction using dissection and taxidermy.
Uh...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decipherment#Notable_decipherers
But sure, we have no idea what cuneiform or Egyptian hieroglyphs or Akkadian (and other cuneiform-script long-dead languages) or Linear B say. No idea at all. All those people who deciphered them after they were long dead, big liars.
Being able to decipher a language doesn’t mean the language is alive. It has to be spoken everyday by people who were taught by their parents, passed down as part of a whole culture.
Okay? This still doesn't justify a total lack of writing and pictures on their probe.
We put writing on probes not even intending them to be used in any sort of archaeological context. Just to help us put them together. Open up any piece of electronics- writing everywhere. Do they really not need any sort of instructions upon assembly?
I think it’s fair to say that they didn’t value books, at least not at the time they built the probe. Their planet was dying and they had accepted that fact for many years. Kamin’s wife Helene even admonishes him for spending too much time with his books instead of living life with their family.
It’s completely and utterly realistic from an emotional perspective. It’s everything you’d expect from a people who knew they were dying. Their way of life, their traditions, their music, their celebrations: those are what mattered to them and they couldn’t be preserved authentically in books or pictures. That’s why they created the probe.
Why is it fair to say that? You have no idea how they felt about books just because one person didn’t like one other person spending too much time with their books. That’s a criticism real live humans have given to each other.
To accept all of your explanations, I have to accept a whole lot of things that are pure assumptions on your part and not actually demonstrated in the episode.
I think we all know that you can come up with extremely convoluted explanations for why stupid things in sci-fi aren’t actually stupid. They all involve adding all sorts of details. If those details were relevant, you shouldn’t have to make them up.
She wasn’t just one person. She was a representative of her entire species. They make it clear at the end when everyone reverts to their youthful appearance. The life Picard lived as Kamin was in some sense a staging for Picard’s benefit, not a real life. Kamin may have been a real person who was married to Helene but Picard wouldn’t have mirrored exactly what he did with his life.
At any rate, I think you’re missing the point of Star Trek. The show has never been “hard sci fi”. It’s always been a show that uses a science fiction setting to tell human stories. Trying to criticize it from a scientific perspective is just silly. There’s a bit of science in the show but any time science gets in the way of the story they wave it away with some technobabble.
Again, you're making up things that aren't in the show and assuming things that aren't said.
I think you're missing the point that this was a "Wait-a-minute Wednesday" thread in a meme community and maybe you need to take this about a billion times less seriously than you're taking it.
I’d forgotten that long ago. I was just enjoying this back and forth with you!