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International Chess Federation (FIDE) to ban and punish transgender players
(www.erininthemorning.com)
this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2023
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So the argument about physical capabilities used to ban trans women from sports was bullshit and it was all actually transphobia?! Color me shocked
Well... no. There are maybe 50 women total who could play in the NFL, mostly as kickers. In basketball, women use a smaller ball because their hands are just smaller. Someone who's FTM is probably not going to be able to compete.
There are enduring advantages from living most of your life pumped with testosterone. But there's so few top athletes who transition MTF in their prime, it's not a big problem. Just look at Caitlyn Jenner. She could still beat most women (and men) at a track meet.
Just gonna paste an old comment I made about trans athletes. TL;DR: athletic advantages/disadvantages diminish after ~2 years of HRT. There's no good reason to exclude trans people from elite sports. Athletes already undergo testing to make sure their hormones levels are within pre-determined limits.
British Journal of Sports Medicine states 2 years after receiving gender affirming hormones, athletic advantages disappeared with an exception to running, in which trans- women had 9% faster lap times. Trans-men were on par with their biological male counterparts after just 1 year of hormone therapy.
Medscape has an interview with Joanna Harper, and advisor to the I0C on gender and sports about this very topic. In the interview she mentions a study out of Brazil that indicates a further decrease in strength in trans-women (MtF) athletes after 36 months, further diminishing any potential physiological advantage in these athletes.
There's also something to be said about who these arguments are targeting. There are very few elite trans athletes and they already have to conform to strict guidelines on blood hormone levels and other doping tactics, just like everyone else at that level. The arguments are largely against high schoolers (children) who just want to participate in something. No one is taking puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones just to take a trophy home in high school. It's a ridiculous argument through and through. A thinly veiled attempt to further marginalize and discriminate against a vulnerable population
The issue of transgender athletes was basically resolved several years ago when the IOC decided on two years of feminizing hormones before transgender women could compete in the female category. But due to the re-emergence of the anti-queer culture war, sports federations are re-litigating the issue and throwing science out the door.
Science completely disagrees in so many studies. Let alone the personal opinions of trans athletes in the world themselves lol.
Like you two, I've provided sauce above. Most of it far more recent than several years ago as if pointing to a single study refutes any other lol.
Edit: It sounds like you're referencing old studies. And the Olympic Committee isn't exactly known for being on top of science or neutral lol. It's nearly decade old science in a field that still needs a lot of data.
https://www.science.org/content/article/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including
More news showing it's unfair. Just go see my original.
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/24/1165795462/transgender-track-and-field-athletes-cant-compete-in-womens-international-events
Begone, transphobe.
Sounds more like you're a closed minded bigot who has already made up their mind despite being shown evidence to the contrary.
It's not a very becoming look for someone who presumably wants progress for trans folk. You can't just stuff your head in the sand the moment science begins to sway a different direction. It's not how science or reality works. It's not Adam Savage's most well known catchphrase.
These are important discussions and you're literally harming trans people by acting this petulant and childish. Quit with the persecution act and show your sources. This ain't Truth Social lmfao.
Yeaaaaah no. Gender, just like sexual preference is a spectrum and people can fall anywhere on that spectrum
So even if we knew, with near certainty, that a child would be helped by gender-affirming care, you maintain "no exceptions". Because forcing 99 trans people through an undesired puberty is better for you than 1 cisgender person having a delayed puberty. Because 99 miserable trans people is worth saving 1 cis person from even mild discomfort.
You aren't a doctor, and more importantly, you aren't their doctor. Keep your nose out of other people's healthcare, it is none of your business.
Define gender affirming care, please. Does it involve a scalpel? If so - sorry, thats sickening and should be illegal. Must be 18 and have given full consent. Doesnt matter what some gender doctor says either - as if they arent on the payroll here too? C'mon.
Generally no. Only in rare cases is any surgery done as a part of gender-affirming care for under-18s.
During puberty, it's just puberty blockers to delay as long as possible and gain more time for therapy. These are a conservative treatment, the absolute minimum intervention that allows the child the opportunity to be assessed further without putting them through unnecessary distress.
Between 14-16, HRT may be started if everyone, including mental health professionals, are sure that this is what is right for the patient.
Surgery is a minimum of two years after starting HRT. So the vast majority of those procedures will be done on patients over the age of 18. And the patient will have had to maintain their transgender identity for a solid two years, while under the effects of HRT and probably living as their gender full time. In the rare case that a patient somehow begins to transition mistakenly, they have a minimum of two years, watching their body gradually change, to bail out.
After all those checks and balances, it's really no surprise that transition regret is very rare.
I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to wild conspiracy theories that the entire medical profession, including basically every major medical body around the world, are all colluding on the subject of transgender health and taking enormous reputational risk, to forcibly "trans" a tiny handful of people.
There is simply not even close to enough money in it.
Yeah this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding and probably an unwillingness to try to understand. As a cis-gender individuals you and I can't know what it's like to be trans, but we can listen to those who do know and try to understand to the best of our abilities. You clearly don't wish to, but I have listened and I try to understand because I wish to be a decent human being.
My friends and family who are trans have said they knew from very young ages that they are not the gender they may have been biologically born as.
Also once you know you are trans one of the first steps is to take medications that prevent puberty from occuring which allows a much easier and cleaner transition later in life as well as allowing them to present as the gender they wish to present as. Preventing access to this kind of medical care until they are 18 is severely detrimental.
Gender affirming medical care is critical because the suicide rates of trans people who are not able to transition are incredibly high and rates of regret for those who are able to receive transition surgery is so shocking close to zero.
TL;DR you're wrong and an asshole for choosing not to learn otherwise
Wow - finishes up with the usual insults. Relax, bruh. What exactly is "gender affirming care" anyways? Cutting genitals off of young boys/girls who might be simply confused or following the latest trend? They cant vote, drive after 9pm, buy a gun, get a tattoo, etc. until they are 18 but you and your kind are fine with hacking them up much younger than that. Pretty sick, sorry.
For minors most commonly it is to delay puberty and I believe in some cass may also involve hormone replacement therapy (HRT), but the most inportant part is combining the medical treatment with psychological counseling and treatment to help with the transition as well. It's not easy being born with the wrong biological gender
The only people cutting off the genitals of young boys are people who insist on and continue to encourage circumcision. Female genital mutilation is thankfully continuing to be an increasingly rare practice.
Who is "my kind" exactly and when did I say I'm "fine with hacking them up"?
What I actually support is compassionate individualized care appropriate for the individual based on the ongoing best practices established by the industry. I am not a medical expert, nor do I work in medicine, however those that are experts and have extensive experience and research in these areas have already established the significant mental health benefits of access to age- and developement-appropriate gender affirming care to all who need it.
Honestly the only thing I need to tell which side of history I want to be on is to see how happy people are once they begin treatment and begin presenting as who they really are. There is a glow of happiness in every trans person I've seen after beginning HRT that was simply not present beforehand. You have to truly be an asshole to want to take that away from people.
So yes, I think you're an asshole based on the opinions you've stated, and I hope you can learn to have some compassion for your fellow human. You might even make some friends along the way
Plenty of friends as is, thanks. This all sounds good on paper until you read about horror stories and how quote a few people that fell for this regret it, big time. This gender "thing" has exploded over the last 4-5 years. Are you really certain that there isnt a LOT of "hey, me too" going on with this? There are just magically all these gender-confused people suddenly? A lot of people are having trouble buying into that idea. We all know that there are legit cases of true hermies and other statistical outliers. But this gender thing is dominating like everything now. Its the 2020's version of a counter culture. Homo-sexuality was mostly accepted, so now people have to move onto the "next thing", it seems since being gay isnt controversial enough.
As for compassionate care - yeah, fine. But to me, that should start with why they feel the way they do. How did a boy feel as if hes a girl? Same for the opposite. lets get to the root cause of this which to me is what needs to be addressed & managed. Id rather see these people helped to regain their biological identity so they can live a normal life. That seems more compassionate to me.
That's called cherry-picking.
Yes there is, but that's not a bad thing.
Part of the apparent increase in the number of transgender people is simply that people are more open about being transgender, rather than hiding it. And because being transgender is being made into a political issue by bigots, trans people are more visible. Previously trans people would simply get on with their transition, and live their lives unaccosted.
But secondly with an increase in visibility, a lot of people are realising, "Wait, other people feel the same way as I do?" These people were always transgender, they have just been given the words to understand and describe their experiences, and are thus coming to terms with being transgender, and coming out. It's not that there are more people with gender issues, it's that more people who have always had gender issues are realising precisely what those issues actually are.
That is because conservatives refuse to leave trans people alone. If people leave trans people to just get their healthcare and get on with their lives, and give them the same respect everyone else gets in society, you'll quickly find that the "issue" disappears.
You are SO CLOSE to getting it.
You are dead right, homosexuality has become more accepted, and less controversial.
So conservative politicians have had to move onto a different minority to stir up fear and outrage about. That is why you are suddenly hearing about transgender people so much.
Why do you think that that isn't what has happened?
Well what you would "rather" has zero relevance to what actually works, and what is true.
Gender diverse people have existed throughout human history, in cultures around the world. the gender binary is more of a "fad" than transgender people.
Because ultimately, it is a normal part of the human experience. Some small percentage of people are transgender.
There is. The leading theory is that they are, mentally, their gender.
Absolutely not. This is COMPLETELY divorced from reality.
The social pressure to not be transgender is MASSIVE. Coming out as trans WILL lose you friends, and may lose you family as well. That is just a simple truth that transgender people accept when we come out. Not that we may lose friends, but that it is basically a certainty. We risk getting kicked out of our homes. We face discrimination in employment, healthcare, and housing. And the media stirs up false outrage about us constantly, out lives are politicised.
Being trans is hard. People aren't doing this to be trendy.
Yes. We are a tiny portion of the population that entire political parties in multiple countries are running campaigns against.
Oh I'm so sorry I would like to exist in public.
Then leave us alone.
I cannot express how much I hate people with your beliefs, without getting banned. The world would be a better place without people like you in it.
Sorry we disagree. At least you’re being mostly civil about it. Being in public just minding your own business and putting on a drag show are not the same thing and you know that. Being accepted and parading around flamboyantly are also different. I’d say most people are against discrimination when it comes to basic rights. Like, job offers, school admissions, etc. But, that doesn’t translate to pushing propaganda or overdoing it. There is a line here that’s reasonable.
Take care.
Sod off, into the sea.
I know. As soon as you question the "agenda" at all you get attacked by the usual suspects. Whatever. It’s clear that when people get mad an insult you that you’ve struck a nerve. They can’t handle it.
"The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan.
I'm sure muscle diminishes rapidly after MTF transition, but humans are just very good at losing muscle. Height and hand size are not things that go away after transition. Basketball is obviously one of the sports where MTF people have a massive advantage, although I don't know of any studies on it. It depends massively on the sport.
Of course in professional leagues everyone is genetically unique. Saying "no this particular genetically unique person is unfair" is a bit weird.
When you start talking about height and hand size, I think you're getting lost in the sauce. Basketball already favors abnormally tall people anyway, but no one is trying to ban Yao Ming from the sport for being 229 cm (7'6").
Yeah. Pretty much all the transphobic arguments could apply to most top athletes.
"Yao Ming is stealing sports from natural, normal height men!"
"Michael Phelps has an unfair advantage because he has unnatural lungs and bone structure!"
"It's not fair to normal men that they have to compete against Mike Tyson. Would you want your son to have to fight against that?"
The reality is that the top athletes will always be physical outliers. That doesn't mean more average folks need to be excluded from sports nor that birth gender necessarily gives you an unfair advantage compared to the top athletes.
Beat me to the punch. This has been a settled issue for years, the only reason to hammer on about how trans people shouldn't be in sports is either prejudice or ignorance. And having a several comment exchange where sources are already cited kinda narrows that down
Have you seen Michael Phelp's hands. The man is an absolute genetic freak with multiple advantages, both in external build and internally (e.g. lactose buildup), there's no way anyone with average genetics can compete no matter how much they train.
And middle of the road athletes competing in the men's leagues don't become top athletes in the woman's league after transitioning, btw. They become middle of the road. Might there be some slight advantage? Dunno, not sure, might be, but it also doesn't matter because noone the fuck is willing to incur gender dysphoria to win a fucking title. Athletes are nuts but not that nuts.
Except they haven't. There are a small handful of examples, that people both greatly exaggerate, and repeat over and over again. Trans people have been allowed to compete for many years prior, and have not overrun women's sports.
Simple math is that even being a small minority, trans people will, occasionally, win things. Even if there are zero competitive advantages to being a transgender woman, some trans women are gonna excel. Finding a handful of examples of trans people being good at sports isn't actually proof of advantage.
Is the type of race that can be totally dominated by up and coming Olympic athletes. Regional/institutional races tend to have quite low records until someone top-tier happens, by chance, to participate in them in the course of their career.
My sides. A senior event. At that age the only one you're competing against is yourself.
Yeah that's bullshit there's a reason the rules set by all other organisations involve something along the lines of a minimum of two years on HRT. Noone at all anywhere is claming that the act of identifying as a woman, alone, reduces muscle mass.
Nice of you to provide your own counter-evidence. There we have it, a top athlete in the men's category, slumping to "does she even qualify?" in the men's ratings, but ranking top in the woman's category -- because she was and still is a stellar athlete.
This is what I keep thinking whenever I hear about this "debate." But I guess if the bigots admitted they know how hormones work, then they wouldn't have an outlet for their transphobia.
It's incredible how a good number of transphobic people just either do not know, or cannot admit, what hormones do.
Yeah, non-trans women don't enjoy being forever 2nd because they weren't born men in physically competitive sport lol.
It doesn't take years long studies to understand a woman who transitioned well into or after puberty is still built more physiologically man than women. We will still need data about those who transitioned early and before onset. When a man transitions into being a woman then wipes the floor with every one of her peers, there's something wrong.
You either need mixed gender sport. Male only, and female only. The regulations regarding each will have to be arbitrarily chosen until a good spot is found.
Mental sports that take near zero physical strength should have zero separations between the genders though.
It was great when women started wiping the floor with men at Shooting lol.
It's not so great when, well, Bill Burr says it funnier lol: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ESahoCdQ28
Edit: Since people want sauce wars...
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764 - Jan. 5, 2021
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/ - 2022 Aug; 19
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/lia-thomas-women-sports.html
Renee Richards interview...
https://slate.com/culture/2012/10/jewish-jocks-and-renee-richards-the-life-of-the-transsexual-tennis-legend.html
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/24/1165795462/transgender-track-and-field-athletes-cant-compete-in-womens-international-events
https://www.bbc.com/sport/61346517 - 11 May 2022
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577 - May 17, 2021
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=2ESahoCdQ28
https://piped.video/watch?v=2ESahoCdQ28
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Responded to a comment above yours with sources etc. There's no good reason to exclude trans athletes from sports. Benefits diminish to a negligible point after ~2 years of hormone therapy. I do agree with you that the chess thing is ridiculous though
Thanks for the update.
I've also went and provided numerous and a variety of sources, direct studies, and reputable news sites disagreeing with the nearly decade old science the ALWAYS RIGHTEOUS OLYMPIC COMMITTEE based their decision on from an apparently single cherrypicked study in 2015?
I'd agree it looks like a 2 year wait requirement is a much better factor than the current single year though. Until then though, it needs changed. Then we will need more refuting the current I've linked above which shows pretty handily across the board that MtF athletes retain advantages well after a year and longer.
@blanketswithsmallpox
@iridaniotter @BarrelAgedBoredom
Some sports just have totally dominant competitors. I don't think all the men who lost to Michael Phelps enjoyed losing to him because they didn't get to be born complete genetic freaks that look like they were engineered in a lab to win at swimming. In many women's sports, the top (cis) competitors tend to have really beneficial genetics, including really high levels of testosterone compared to average. Losing to someone because their genetics help them be faster/stronger/taller is just how it goes in competitive sports. Losing to a trans woman is no different than losing to a cis woman who hit the genetic lottery.
Thanks for the heads up. I've provided lots of sauce now too and will continue editing as I pull them up almost in order on Google lol.
The way you start your post is very telling. You'd have been better off leaving out the first two paragraphs.
Appeal to common sense. Also, why default to exclusion/discrimination rather than starting from a point of inclusion and make adjustments from there?
That is not something that has been shown to happen to any significant degree. Seems like another appeal to common sense. Are trans women not allowed to win?
I'm sure you're just a concerned citizen who wants what's best for all involved. 🙄
So are you going to talk about the numerous sauce or????
Right, you can't. Fallacy fallacy. I'm poking fun at the issue like numerous others have had. So the entire argument is wrong... despite....
Appeal to common sense fallacy!... Yet it's where almost all scientific studies come from lol. Also, just because something is a fallacy doesn't mean the logic isn't true lol. Black or white fallacy!
It's only a fallacy if it isn't true mate.
This isn't rhetorical roulette. The simple fact is that you can't refute the studies, you can't refute the sources, so you refuse to change your position. We literally hang a Progress Pride flag off our porch. Like the other person below, you're doing way more harm than good to trans rights.
Either get with the times and help, or stop trolling and ruining the perception of trans folk online by refusing reality. The current rules need to be changed. Top athletes have changed their position ex posto facto realizing how much of an advantage they had within those 2 years after transitioning for decades. Science is showing that people retain advantages after for even longer than 1-2 years. At the top levels of Sport, advantages as small as 1% is the different between even qualifying and medaling.
It's an issue. It's going to take time to resolve. No, swinging the pendulum too far the other direction isn't good, it ruins arguments. Yes, you're human just like those trolls, it doesn't mean you should be falling for the same stick your fingers in your ears obstinance,