this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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Antiwork

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  1. We're trying to improving working conditions and pay.

  2. We're trying to reduce the numbers of hours a person has to work.

  3. We talk about the end of paid work being mandatory for survival.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You think you should not work for a living?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

For a living? Hell no, but I'd work for enjoyment if I didn't have to work to live.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What do you mean "for a living hell no"? You think ancient humans didn't have to work to survive? You think life is some gift to you and you deserve it? Survival is work. You just want free food and shelter while others are working to provide enough for themselves and for you? If surviving is too much work for you, don't do it. No one is forcing you.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago

Your point is invalidated by the invention of the combine harvester, among other things. I'd also be happy going to the fields and helping out, or tending my own garden with my neighbors. It's actually already in my to-do list over the next few years. Also is that a "kill yourself" veiled in your last sentence? Certainly seems like it to me.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So you expect others to just hand you stuff for free? Is that it? I mean, the world does require people to work to, you know, make goods that we consume... Or did you think that Mac Donald's hamburgers are just magically willed into existence? Police are just NPC computer characters?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Actually, yes. Yes I do. Because it already happens, and because that's how it used to work. My neighborhood couldn't afford to repave our streets, but it happens anyway. Farmers certainly couldn't afford to plant all the corn they do, but they do anyway because of government subsidies. Medieval peasants worked far less than we have to and enjoyed far more freedoms, and here we are toiling away despite the fact that one farmer now could feed a whole kingdom. What you're missing is our dollar and economy are not tied to actual, physical things. There's this whole imaginary line graph in the heads of certain people that has to keep going up at all costs.

I think I understand better than you do what goes into a McDonald's hamburger judging by your spelling of it. I also work with my local PD on a daily basis, and I can tell you to them it's just a way to collect a paycheck to live.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

because that’s how it used to work.

In sesame street? Have you ever opened a history book on any place in the world?

Medieval peasants worked far less than we have to and enjoyed far more freedoms

Yeah now I know that you're drunk or 5 years old. Medieval peasants either were slaves, worked as a semi slave for a lord who could squeeze them out, or worked for themselves and were unprotected from the "funs" of the time. ALL of them had to work sun up to sun down to be able to survive. This fantasy where you are living in where medieval peasants had more free time than any of us is just bullshit, there is no other word for it. We actually have 8 hour work days and 2 free days per week (soon will become 3, then 4). Peasants had a 7 day work week, pretty much. Ah, if they were lucky the Sunday church visit would spare them an hour.

one farmer now could feed a whole kingdom

Oh god where do you get your info from? Or, what have you been smoking and please don't give me any of that, I want my brain cells.

You heard some things about "capitalism bad because some rich guys" and apparently really think that that is how the world works. Abuse of capitalism is bad, yes. But the core of it is literally what allowed you to have a mobile phone in your hands so that you can bitch about the evils of capitalism. Grow up.

I think I understand better than you do what goes into a McDonald’s hamburger judging by your spelling of it.

Ah the famous "You made a typo, so I'm right!" argument

Look, I get it, you're on an "antiwork" sub, but you really don't understand how this world works. If you think that something like communism is the solution oh boy do I have a bridge to sell you! Maybe you should open up a history book. Actually, go to wikipedia, search for famines in the last century. Hint: The fun ones are communist! All of it. Maybe look up communist chekist. Watch the movie, crawl in a fetal position for 2 weeks and maybe then you have some idea about how fucked up shit can be and that capitalism, with all its flaws and failures, maybe really isn't that bad.

Get a job!

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The logical conclusion of

you should have to work (to make money, transactionally, anything not valued by capitalism and rich people doesn't even count, if you don't or can't fit this model it doesnt count) to make a living

is that

if you don't work (with the previous very large caveats for what counts as 'work'), you deserve to suffer and die

A lot of people don't think about the implications of that statement when they make it, but that is the logical end point. My experience is that most people - at least if they aren't stressed from the existing model - absolutely want to do things, often sharing them for free, without coercion.

But even if not, do you think people should be miserable and die if they can't or even won't "work for a living" (for a very particular narrow definition of work that can gain you money under the current system, when stuff created and donated is often more valuable than things payed for due to lack of perverse incentives - e.g. FOSS ^.^).

I'm not even starting on how the current model of labour provides perverse anti-automation incentives. Automation should be liberating, but the way our society values people based on labour (e.g. Protestant Work Ethic) actively forces people (and the non-capitalist class as a whole) to avoid tools or processes that should improve our collective lives :/ - imo this is one of the most fucked up things about capitalism.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

And who is working to build that automation, who is working to integrate that automation? Who is building the mechanic stuff, the electric stuff the robots and linear tranfer axes, the PlCs and the sensors?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You know you can get people to do this without threatening them with starvation and homelessness right?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I asked sapient_cogbag who would do the automation work he likes to be implemented? Because someone has to get up in the morning and actually do that work, it doesn't grow on it's own.

And you're asking me about threats of starvation and homelessness ... I don't get it ...

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Then you missed the whole point.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The current way we coerce (by threatening starvation and homelessness) is not the only way to make people do things. I agree that free everything forever with sprinkles is probably not going to work or allow us to maintain our current quality of life (I too like pop-tarts medicine, and computers). It's not a binary. There are options in between that can be used to motivate people to do even unpleasant things.

I think we coerce way to much and I think a lot of coercion that we do benefits only a few people and not the many.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No one in particular. But I am coerced into working as are you.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm not coerced, I choose to. I could very well live off the land. The only difference would be the life standard and what I can afford, but hey smartphones, internet and restaurants are a first world luxuries not real life needs.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Oh my bad. I did realize you're one of the 12ish people that can do that. Can you imagine not having that ability and sympathize with people who don't have that ability? If not, we don't really have any common ground to stand on.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I thought of another good argument so I'm posting it here.

Saying that I can stop working anytime and eat dirt is not really selling me on your ideas.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And I'm not trying to sell to you anything. I never said you can stop working. I never said you can eat dirt.

You can stop working only if someone else has already worked for you accumulating value so you can consume now. Even a big business if going forward only through work. The work of you or of your forefathers that you consume now but someone, sometime had to work.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Okay I'm confused. I thought we were talking about corrosion. What does your reply have to do with corrosion?

I never said anything about stopping work. But I do think if humanity can produce enough, we should work less relative to how much we can produce.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The people who want to? I mean loads of people like developing infrastructure, hell, I am very much included in that number (more FOSS/software stuff and I'm not always the most effective for various executive dysfunction reasons but still)

People don't need to be threatened with starvation to do stuff, and not having that threat enables people to do stuff they think is valuable rather than what some rich arsehole wanting to fuck over everyone else thinks is valuable or what will happen to make money <.<

I think you missed the point if my comnent.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Thats the fun stuff, but theres lots of stuff that has to be done in a society thats not fun.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

It cannot be! People are working for fun:

"love what you do and you would not work a day" , right!? /s

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

When current amount of automation and efficiency? Yes.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You do understand that Elon musk is full of shit, right? AI isn't going to take away all jobs within the next year.

We automate the crap out of stuff but without humans, the system is dead within days and that isn't going to change for decades to come, still.

You can put up your hand to beg but people aren't going to give you stuff just because you're too lazy or too naive about the world. Maybe 20 years from now there will be universal income because both automation and AI became good enough to really take away jobs. But until then, get your ass back to work, like everybody else

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You do understand that Elon musk is full of shit, right?

Hahahahaha. It is so funny the first thing you mention is Musk. He sure looks like Musk:

AI isn't going to take away all jobs within the next year.

AI is not automation, it doesn't do a shit.

We automate the crap out of stuff but without humans, the system is dead within days and that isn't going to change for decades to come, still.

From the top of my head: steel plant. Just bring whatever needed to automatic loader and ship whatever stuff comes out with occasional taking of samples to check against desired specs.

Secong thing from top of my head: CNCs. They have been around for at least 50 years.

Mechanization is much simpler: just replace an army of street cleaners with operator and machine .

What? Not as eye-catching and you cannot flame in comments about Elon? This is reality, not a wet dream of billionare.

Maybe 20 years from now there will be universal income because both automation and AI became good enough to really take away jobs.

Except if we go into that age without economic reforms made beforehand, then it will become feudalism.

But until then, get your ass back to work, like everybody else

Sorry to disappoint you, but my work gets to me. That's called remote work.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh boy, where to even start...

AI is not automation, it doesn’t do a shit.

AI is a subset of logical systems that can control hardware. You know, fly a plane, bake cookies in a factory, that sort of crap. Computer programming does everything.

From the top of my head: steel plant. Just bring whatever needed to automatic loader and ship whatever stuff comes out with occasional taking of samples to check against desired specs.

Yeah, and drawing a photo realistic horse too is done by drawing a circle and then drawing the rest of the horse. Seriously, "ship whatever stuff comes out"... Do you have any idea what goes on in a steel plant? Do you really think that there is no automation going on there now? Do you really think that a steel plant doesn't require humans to do what is done right now?

I don't really know what you are trying to say with the street cleaners? Sometimes loads of cheap people are used because then at least you got peopoe with a paid job?

Except if we go into that age without economic reforms made beforehand, then it will become feudalism.

There you go. Something that sounds remotely reasonable. I don't worry too much about feudalism. If you want reforms, start with the government (I suppose you are in the US). Get rid of the "winner takes all" elections so that you start having many more political parties that now spread the power and have to cooperate. This gives more political stability. This over time will push to more economic stability as well, more tax on rich, less divide between rich and poor.

Sorry to disappoint you, but my work gets to me. That’s called remote work.

So you don't "get" behind your computer? Either way, you still work, then.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

AI is a subset of logical systems that can control hardware. You know, fly a plane, bake cookies in a factory, that sort of crap.

Eeeyp. Control "logic".

Computer programming does everything.

Nope. Computer still need devices that will do actual shit. Do YOUR gaming pc with NNs and raytracing bakes cookies? Relay computer from 70-ies hooked up to oven does.

Do you have any idea what goes on in a steel plant?

It seems I oversimplified and took not good example. CNCs are better example. My point is a lot of stuff can be automated, a lot of stuff already was automated and it has nothing to do with certan billionare because he crawled or wasn't even born when automation started. And it doesn't require AI.

If you want reforms, start with the government

I think it is part of much broader problem with monopolies. We see start that does not exists, we don't see end, but it exists. Everything should be fixed, there is no "let's fix one thing and everything else will work because of it".

(I suppose you are in the US).

No, but where I am has all bad stuff from US. ~~*cough*corruption, oligarchy, Putin*cough*~~

Get rid of the "winner takes all" elections

Monopolies, monopolies everywhere.

so that you start having many more political parties that now spread the power and have to cooperate. This gives more political stability.

I don't think stability has its value in itself. If everything stable junk, stable corruption, stable irremovable "great leader", there is no point in stability.

So you don't "get" behind your computer? Either way, you still work, then.

You got me, I still "get" to workplace. Sadly, getting from work is harder, unless I knock myself unconscious.