this post was submitted on 11 Jun 2023
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Asklemmy

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (44 children)

I'm sorry I'm not sure how else to describe it. Trans people are those who believe their sex doesn't match how they feel inside.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (43 children)

I am aware of the concept of being transgender I am just wondering what your "polite disagreements" are with it

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (13 children)

Are you genuinely interested or just looking to start a fight? I know recreational outrage is a thing on Reddit and I had hoped to leave it there.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No I'm genuinely interested to hear your perspective and why it was a point of contention

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

No worries. Sorry for being defensive. I’ve received death threats before so you can imagine my reticence to speak freely.

Forgive the brevity. The topic is quite personal to me. I had a trans person in my family until recently. They committed suicide. I took it upon myself to research the topic to the best of my abilities. My current stance is that, while I support the right for adults to do with their body as they wish, I do not support the practise of transitioning children; be it medically or socially. In all my research I couldn’t find a single study, anywhere, demonstrating an objective quality of life improvement. These would be measurable metrics like:

  • Life expectancy.
  • Suicide rate.
  • Rates of addiction.
  • Health outcomes such as reduced rates of obesity and heart attacks.
  • Rates of crime.
  • Rates of homelessness.
  • Rates of victimisation (rape, assault, etc.).
  • Income.
  • Wealth.

It’s not for lack of trying, either. I’ve never seen so much funding go to any single topic in academia. Given this lack of evidence, researchers turned to subjective measures of improvement. The primary being “suicidality.” They ask subjects how they feel about suicide. This is an effective proxy for, “are you happy with the major medical procedure you just asked for?” Unsurprisingly, this is subject to enormous bias.

Instead, I found evidence that not transitioning is a much better, much more effective treatment for children. This study found that only 37% of children still identified as dysphoric five years later. This study found that 88% had desisted (they were no longer dysphoric). This mirrors other historical research into various areas of child psychology. Children frequently change identity and beliefs around identity.

The primary arguments appear to be, a) if we don’t transition children, they will commit suicide. As above, I believe this is false. The second premise is, b) puberty blockers are completely reversible. This isn’t true either. These are the expected side effects of puberty blockers:

Common side effects of the GnRH agonists and antagonists include symptoms of hypogonadism such as hot flashes, gynecomastia, fatigue, weight gain, fluid retention, erectile dysfunction and decreased libido. Long term therapy can result in metabolic abnormalities, weight gain, worsening of diabetes and osteoporosis. Rare, but potentially serious adverse events include transient worsening of prostate cancer due to surge in testosterone with initial injection of GnRH agonists and pituitary apoplexy in patients with pituitary adenoma. Single instances of clinically apparent liver injury have been reported with some GnRH agonists (histrelin, goserelin), but the reports were not very convincing. There is no evidence to indicate that there is cross sensitivity to liver injury among the various GnRH analogues despite their similarity in structure. There is also a report that GnRH agonists used in the treatment of advanced prostate cancer may increase the risk of heart problems by 30%.

Osteoporosis and diabetes are absolutely life altering. Sweden went all-in on "temporary" puberty blockers for gender affirming care until children started experiencing life-long injuries. They are now effectively banned for gender affirming care for children.

In one particularly shocking case, a girl who wanted to become a boy began taking hormone-blocking drugs at just 11-years-old. Almost five years after the treatment began, the puberty-pausing drugs induced osteoporosis and permanently damaged the teen’s vertebrae, severely limiting the teen’s mobility.

“When we asked him regularly how his back felt, he said: ‘I’m in pain all the time’,” she added.

Further, there is a growing body of evidence to show high risk of infertility after prolonged use of these drugs.

And these are just the dangerous irreversible side effects. The cosmetic side effects are devastating, and include men with child-sized penises and testicles, and women without breasts. This is one such case. The teenager had taken puberty blockers, resulting in a small penis. With insufficient penile tissue, doctors attempted to remove and use part of his colon to create a fake vagina. He died less than a day later from complications.

Ultimately, I believe I am very open to evidence. I have reached my position precisely by pouring over research. I am open to honest discussion and debate. I don't belittle or minimise anyone's experiences or beliefs. I simply want the best outcomes for children. For this opinion, I have been banned on many subreddits. I have been sent death threats. I have been called every disgusting name in the dictionary, and then more. I hope that Lemmy is a place which allows respectful discussion.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

@[email protected] this is exactly why tone policing is bullshit moderation policy.

Your modteam is allowing this transphobic screed to exist, and has in fact unbanned the user that posted it despite the very very obvious fact that they are a transphobe doing concern-trolling and "just asking questions" style veiled bigotry, while simultaneously banning everyone that has reacted to their behaviour by rightfully calling them the names they deserve to be called.

This policymaking is what results in people in the left calling someone a terf or a fascist getting banned while the fascists and terfs roam free. The site will be taken over by this and the left will slowly be banned and pushed out by it. The fact that the team can't seem to get into their heads that trans people might get a little fucking heated when bigots are allowed to exist and clearly defended by some of the incompetent members the modteam is another part of the problem.

You should get some trans people on your team to keep the rest of the idiots on it making these shit decisions in check. This nerd should absolutely be rebanned and every other person that copped a ban over this shit should be unbanned.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

ty for articulating this so well o7

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

It's pleasant to see that the Lemmy team saw reason on this. I intentionally used a few names in it for effect and that was a risk to me getting banned but seemed to work out demonstrating that a person can be completely correct and should be listened to despite their tone. Wasn't even really intentional either I was just fucking heated over the way this was being handled. Lemmy does need some on-point trans mods that are willing to argue with the rest of the team internally over poor decision making and do some internal education.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What the hell is this? Trans person here. This is not the thread to start concern trolling about trans issues. If you really want a space to talk freely about your concerns you can start a community or even your own instance.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah, this is just run of the mill transphobic sealioning. They even complain about reddit having been run by tankies and repeated the "current thing" conservative reactionary trope. I'm totally fine if this kind of person doesn't feel welcome here.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago

He's literally responding to a user who said

I'm genuinely interested to hear your perspective and why it was a point of contention

So he explained his perspective. Concern trolling lmao.

If you want a space where you don't encounter other perspectives, there are plenty of spaces like that both in the real world and on the internet.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@[email protected] please reconsider reprioritizing civility fetishism, particularly in defense against transphobia. The course of events here was extremely uncool and is tantamount to making this space systemically transphobic.

All it will take to drive trans people off is for you to ban them when they defend themselves against transphobic hate. And all it will take for transphobes to make that happen is for transphobes to harass people here until they react. This pattern has happened many times on many platforms and I'm surprised if you're not aware of it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm torn on this. One the one hand there's something to be said against insta-banning a person just because they wrote "I don't know if a 12-year-old can meaningfully consent to gender affirming care". On the other hand you get people who engage in that kind of discourse just to hide their power level. e.g. one of the links in the above-discussed comment goes to transgendertrend dot com, a website I did not know of until today, but it took me exactly one look at its main page and its "about us" section to suspect that anyone who linked anything from there must be way more radicalized than the stage where they are "open to evidence and to honest discussion and debate". As a filthy moderate myself, I know that a fellow filthy moderate would at least make the minuscule effort to find a source that pretends not to be propaganda.

The author of that manifesto two levels up is not making an argument out of the bottom of their heart; they are proselytizing. They are engaging in what the Musk fan, Tim Urban, once described in his blog as "thinking like an attorney":

An Attorney and a Sports Fan have a lot in common. They both have a preferred [conclusion], while also still maintaining some level of dedication to [the process of objective reasoning]. They’re both conflicted between the values of truth and confirmation. The critical difference is in which value, deep down, is higher in their Values Stack. A Sports Fan wants to win, but when pushed, they care even more about fair play than winning. An Attorney’s job is to win, and no matter how hard you push them, nothing can alter their allegiance. Because has THIS ever happened? [A crude drawing of a courtroom; a judge asks "anything more from the defense?" and the defense attorney, to the horror of the defendant, answers: "actually, your honor, the prosecutor just made some really excellent points. I guess my client is guilty after all."] No. That has never happened.

"Civility fetishism" is a real problem and I have personally seen it destroy some spaces I have held dear, via attorneys attorney-ing all day and shouting "debate me, debate me, it's just facts and logic, what are you so afraid of". So I fully understand the weariness of the person I am replying to.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

As you mention, "just asking questions" is a common way to backdoor hate against marginalized groups, and its acceptance is a sign that a space condones the reactionary view. Anyone that is here in good faith looking to understand trans rights without implicitly challenging them should be directed to a separate space where they can learn, get dunked on, have their message removed, and face a ban.

The only reason it is tolerated in any form here is that at least one admin (which one we don't know) is cool with transphobia and doesn't see it as being so bad, and they can get away with it because transphobia is normalized. If you swapped the scenario to something that is not normalized, like "just asking questions about the inferiority of black people", you'd see a stronger response because anti-blackness, while still present, is less tolerated in its explicit form.

Notably, the trans person that reacted to this harassment was banned site-wide while the transphobe was not and had their comment restored by an admin, overriding the mod that removed it.

Bigots will play that game all day and win. @[email protected] I know you're busy but this is unacceptable.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

In all my research I couldn’t find a single study, anywhere, demonstrating an objective quality of life improvement.

You're saying you haven't found any evidence and that proves there isn't improvement but it's impossible for any properly done study to prove any changes to those categories. The simple reason is there is no environment that has existed for long enough to do a comparison. It's impossible to conduct a proper study on the life expectancy of trans people if they transition at 12 years old or 20 years old because the treatments have not been around long enough and people can live a long time. Even a study that tracks suicide rates over 5 years based on treatment type takes much more than 5 years.

The only studies that can be done need to use historic data and we can't change the past plus retroactive comparisons are super dicey and very prone to bias. Remember how dead patients were added post-moterm to that COVID trial published from Egypt which totally skewed the results? That study lead to large numbers of people taking ivermectin and fueled the antivax movement worldwide https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/93658

The absence of research studies can not be used to prove or disprove something and should not form your opinions based on this. As least people aren't trying and doing it poorly then people write catchy articles about it and it creates whole industries (I'm looking at you, nutritional science).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

This is pure comedy ✌

Others please note I did not see the above message, but instead it was already removed by a moderator.

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