Fuck Cars
A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!
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I can do the maths, but apparently you refuse to. You're going by what you've been taught about speeding on the motorway, how 80 mph is really very close to 70 mph in terms of time. That doesn't hold true between 20 and 30.
You're not considering anything, you're not arguing the points I've presented, you're just trying to fight me. It isn't working.
If you have evidence that backs up your side of the argument then please present it, like I have with the government's compliance statistics. Don't try to pass off the work for making your argument onto me.
Perhaps this will help
So their key points:
Don't really relate to 20 all that much.
If you want 20 mph roads, then build 20 mph roads. If you want drivers to drive better, train them.
Just in general, can I ask what you're hoping to get from this thread? I mean, you're in the Fuck Cars community asking everyone to agree with you that today's driving is okay, that there aren't benefits from slowing down motor traffic and that we shouldn't expect people to act legally. It seems a strange battle to choose.
I'm just calling out bullshit political pandering in a blanket speed limit reduction as what it is: bullshit political pandering that doesn't even really achieve the goals it sets out to do.
I'm not against 20 limits, I'm not against increasing safety of vulnerable road users, I'm not against reducing the use of cars. I want those things to be done appropriately and effectively. This is not that.
That whole study is specifically aimed at 20mph. It does reduce speed but not exactly by 10mph. It’s going to reduce traffic time, casualities, pollution and increase walking and public transport use.
There is a lot to like and for the places that it doesn’t apply people can always put up a sign for 30. Ideally this is supported by traffic calming measures but that’s a longer more costly.
Also, if you want to refer to that blog post as a "study", we should look only at its sourced claims.
This is specifically about Bristol, a city with narrow roads.
I'm sure Germany have implemented speed limits efficiently, but the UK has a history of compelling local councils to implement traffic measures that increase fuel consumption and thereby increase fuel tax revenue. Regardless, Germany have not changed all of their 50 kph zones to 30 kph, like this law proposes.
Urban traffic flow. This law covers everywhere.
This experiment was from 1950.
Urban design, referring to handling specific zones of congestion.
None of these points apply to changing the national speed limit for Wales from 30 to 20.
[^1]: Cycling City project and Active Bristol / Monitoring by Bristol City Council http://www.betterbybike.info/sites/default/files/attachments/Cycling%20City%20end%20of%20project%20report.pdf [^2]: An illustrated guide to traffic calming. by Dr Carmen Hass-Klau (1990) [^3]: Link to a copy of the COBA 2002 manual – Traffic Flow plots are in Chapter 9: http://www.leics.gov.uk/part_5.pdf [^4]: http://www.freeflowuk.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73&Itemid=59 [^5]: Improving traffic behaviour and safety through urban design. Proceedings of Institute of Civil Engineering. Ben Hamilton Baillie, Phil Jones May 2005 http://www.icevirtuallibrary.com/content/article/10.1680/cien.2005.158.5.39
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If they put up a ton of 30 signs then it probably would be alright. Eg, the main road through a village or town could stay 30, while the main high street and side roads would all be default 20. But that requires more than just a change in law to say "what was 30 is now 20", and they don't seem to be doing this. They're expecting financially strapped local councils to go through a process of assessing and assigning 30 limits themselves, at their own expense. It likely won't happen in most places, they simply can't afford it.