this post was submitted on 30 Sep 2023
721 points (94.8% liked)
Europe
8484 readers
1 users here now
News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe 🇪🇺
(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, 🇩🇪 ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures
Rules
(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)
- Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
- No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
- No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.
Also check out [email protected]
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
10-15 years ago I remember being told that Nazism couldn't take hold again in Germany because of all the laws, and the education in schools about Nazis, and stigma, and people who would fist-fight Nazis in the street if they saw right-wing symbols.
Was I sold an optimistic outlook or has the situation just changed that drastically since then?
As a non-German who is particularly not keen about Nazism but who doesn't speak enough German to keep a closer eye on it over there, I'm grateful for your name and shame overview.
German here. Sorry bro, that was all just wishfull thinking. Actually fascism can come back anytime, anywhere if we don´t actively prevent it.
Agreed about active prevention, I think that's why I'm so surprised and saddened Germany hasn't done much better at it. There were active legal and education strategies put in place and I wanted to believe it could support sufficient systemic change.
At 12.6% of the vote for AfD from last election though, it seems to be nowhere near sufficient. And that terrifies me.
It pretty much looked like that systemic change had been made in west germany, then the reunification came and changed everything since it turned out that in the GDR, fascism had been very well preserved, especially in the "liberated" working class. Soon after the german reunification the first migrants asylum home for was burned by neonazis and since then there has been neonazi terror.
If that scares you don´t check up on the newer polls T_T
I mean we did do, and still do, better than many other states in europe. We have had (sometimes extremly) right wing governments in the eastern parts of europe for a long-ish time, see hungary, austria, poland, france struggling with keeping LePene's party from power, italy having a premier that follows the teachings of the original fascist Mussolini. The AfD has been a bad sign but they were far from getting any real power besides making us look stupid for the last ten years. Now for the last year they are actually starting to take burocratic positions with political significance.
These next few months and years might be very influencial on how we develop as a country. We will have a few elections for the state governments and the federal government will be elected in two years.
A lot of the education and events were about remembering the past, I think it should have been more about causes and prevention but that would have hurt more current political interests.
Nazism is still a shunned no-go, and the AfD knows that (and regularly accuses others of being Nazis). The way I see it, its officials are still Nazis though, but they get around acknowledging that by just positioning themselves as counter-culture opposition to progressive movements, which is great at mobilizing a united front of anyone who feels attacked by any part of progressivism. Meanwhile, they also covertly appease other Nazis and the extreme right through dogwhistles and the like. The anti-progressive voters just ignore or tolerate this. This combination sadly proves successful. When they start building the camps, of course everyone should've known they're Nazis, but no one thinks that far even though it's their policies' logical conclusion.
Yeah, exact same thing is happening in Australia. Even the camps, they're just not explicitly extermination camps as much as "destroy your soul with indefinite and lengthy confinement" camps. They prefer the name "detention centres" though. I hope refugees in Europe are treated better than that.
No, sadly refugees are already treated quite badly here. Germany took in a respectable amount but then left it to the EU border countries to either deal with them with little to no help or just shut themselves off completely. :( What would really be needed is a program to redistribute resources from the wealthy profiting from neocolonialism/climate change to those affected by it, but it's generally framed as if the general population would need to pay for that which turns them against the refugees.
Think it's called Socialist utopia? With you big dog, that would be fantastic.
They also take advantage of people's lack of math skills to present scary absolute numbers of immigrants that are not that high per capita.
Well the UK have tried to emulate Australia by outsourcing detention to Rwanda, so no. Probably not.
The internet was still a very different place 10-15 years ago.
Fair. It's hard to pinpoint what is an increase in overall amount or just an increase in findable and actively promoted amounts.
I guess I just wanted to believe it was something that could be successfully removed.
I think the global mood (and Overton window) have generally shifted very rapidly to the right in the past 20 years or so, and bigots everywhere aren't as fearful of taking the mask off as they used to be (but the point being - they never went anywhere, they just got good at hiding, but now no longer need to).
It's also worth noting that denazification happened in theory, but in practice Nazis remained in high powered positions pretty much continually after the war https://www.businessinsider.nl/former-nazi-officials-in-germany-post-world-war-ii-government-2016-10?international=true&r=US
I've also been watching a BBC series that's been dealing with the hunt for Nazis after the war, but which touches often on the fact that only a tiny percentage were ever caught or prosecuted, and that many establishments (including the judicial system) was still staffed and run by ex members of the Nazi party.
Never mind all the Nazis that established themselves outside of Germany after the war, and then those who simply support similar ideas (like those who inspired them in the first place - the American white supremacist)
So yeah, the theory is nice, but the reality is quite different.
An eternal problem that likely contributes far more than we could ever guess. Tragic.
Unfortunately we don‘t have enough left wing fist-fighters anymore, cuz „ArE yOu ReAlLy BeTtEr, If YoU pUnCh NaZiS?!“
Fuck that. Come to a punk show. We don't put up with those shitheads. To quote The Dead Kennedy's, "Nazi Punks, FUCK OFF!!!"
Nazis and fascists that show to punk shows leave with black eyes, bloody noses, and missing teeth.
Punks doing a better job at denazification, than the Allies after WW2
Yeah... Reddit really made me feel like a sociopath about this. Why are we obsessed with the high road? Like.. I'm teaching my son pacifism all day everyday. He's the biggest kid, still, our checklist before hitting back has like 30 things you do first, and only to save your life. But.. Nazis? Am I a fuckin dinosaur? I've even talked to a nazi for hours and told him I was an undermensch class in the middle of it, and seemed to get through to him with a really positive experience (per his own comments).. I'm not some murder porn violent weirdo looking for a reason.. but srsly... They're Nazis. Fuck around find out, no? Be a Nazi???? Yeah man.. you're gonna get knocked out if there's justice and nobody is giving af about you. Aita?
I remember that we discussed this specific question at school. How dangerous it is to believe that "this can't happen here again because we all remember it and everybody is so well educated about it". That's when you start letting your guard down. That's also when people who may not identify as nazis (yet) start thinking :"Well, national socialism obviously can't happen again, therefore MY far right views can't possibly count as national socialism, therefore they're ok."
It's all bullshit. You can educate people all you want, there will always be a certain percentage of assholes and idiots and we've been far too tolerant of those for far too long.
The same happens here as in every other western country. The right-wing shares their winning strategies of disinformation, populism and avoiding talking about actual policies, which seems to work more or less the same in all countries. Germany is just lagging behind a bit.
There always has been a solid 15% of the German population that is lost to democracy and favours fascist and extremely right-wing politics. This “nazi” foundation has always been well established in many governmental bodies and economic branches as they were necessary to keep the country running after the end of WW2.
Now they are employing the same tactics as before 1945: stimulating fear among disadvantaged population groups (if factual or imaginative) and scapegoating minorities (migrants) for everything bad.
The perceived hesitation and disagreement of the current government doing their part, many of the „Bio-Germans“ who feel disadvantaged turn to the idea of „the new strong man“ that finally „cleans up the cesspool“ they imagine the current political system to be.
If nothing drastically changes, I see whole federal states go lost to the AfD that especially in eastern states are nothing more than a thinly veiled new NSDAP.
Yeah, the tactics they use are very internationally copy-pasted at this point, but 15% seems higher than I had assumed. Not hugely higher, admittedly.
That number is short of constant across a number of societies I know well, but, and here’s the trick, it’s elastic.
If you really push back on it as a society, you can shame most of them into pretending they are just conservatives and the support for your local flavor of authoritarian extreme right wing parties dwindles to 5-ish percent.
However, if you let up, they are free to influence and recruit and their support can easily swell to 20-25%, which is a level where in proportional systems you can start winning elections and leading coalition governments.
So, keep pushing the fuckers back into the sewers.
This is unfortunately the reality, as especially the majority of the German media outlets still seem to try to rationalise and understand those “prodigial sons” (as they seem to perceive them).
However, exactly the opposite to winning them back to democracy is happening: Feeling their voice being heard and valued, they catch emotional tailwinds and become even more radical.
I completely agree, and I thought the push back was more effective than it seems it has been. If a country with some of the most strict anti-Nazi measures in place is still netting 12.6% to its extreme-right political party though, I am horrified to think how large that number can stretch - now that we have nearly lost all the generation who saw it first-hand.
Admittedly the situation in Australia is very different and votes are counted differently, but our furthest right-wing parties seem to only take maximum 10%. And that's already high enough for me to be nervous about the consequences.
I thought the same 20 years ago. The positive outlook was common sense at the time, not an exaggeration. The overall vibe was inclusive, we had open borders in Europe since the 90ies, and German public opinion pro-European and progressive-leaning.
Neonazis were a thing, but a niche phenomenon. Angry young man. Not a part of mainstream society and everyone from conservative teachers to rock bands were 'against nazis', whatever this means.
The situation has changed indeed and it is somewhat scary. Right-wing (including fascist) talking points get significant air-time in the media. Politicians use language that appeals to far-right voters much more openly, dog whistles maybe.
The society is more divided these days. Bavaria votes next weak and you will see a strong divide between urban and rural. Trivial things like how to address groups of people including all genders are heated debates. Rational policies towards solving the climate crisises are stalling because change is seen as an attack on a livestyle. Better: Propaganda frames everything as a cultural war. Your vegan sandwhich, that's war against cattle farmers.
Source: German
I think the only difference between Australia and Germany might be the vegan sandwich part of your post. Although, I probably wouldn't try to order the vegan option one in one of our cattle-farming towns... but they would just laugh and call me a city-person, which would be true.
This thread has made it very clear to me that yet again, despite languages and regions, we're experiencing the exact same issues and rhetoric. I suspect that's true globally.
I hope we can all find a way out of this mess soon.
This will give you a study based view in this topic. https://www.dw.com/en/why-is-far-right-populism-becoming-more-popular-in-germany/a-66084741
A lot of people just stared accepting far right wing views like about abortion, LGBT hate and etc. Instead of fighting them. They also made a lot people really belive that all problems we face are not from big companies wo only pay minimum wage (which isn't enough to support people in bigger cities) or who own over 70% of the real estate in Germany but because of left wing politics and immigrants.
"Getting hold of" can be interpreted broadly. While it’s not unrealistic that the next coalition might be conservative CxU + libertarian FDP + nazi AfD, it’s also very likely that the AfD gets banned until the next election, the responsible organization already has an eye on them. And a government with the AfD would be catastrophic (obviously), but it wouldn’t equal the creation the fourth reich. They would need a 2/3 majority to change/abolish constitutional laws and to change art. 1-20, which ensure human rights and such stuff, they would first need to change/abolish art. 79, which not even CxU and FDP would support. And here’s the fun part: if the AfD actually planned to do that, even without outright stating it, it would be enough to get them banned. The protecting mechanisms are there, the AfD can’t do anything about it and the other parties with coalition potential, even CxU and FDP, wouldn’t pave the way that far for another dictatorship.
So while it’s grim that a Nazi party is that popular, the damage they can possibly do is definitely below 1933.
On the other hand, should they gain 33% of seats, they can block all changes to the constitution. Should they occupy enough seats in the Bundesrat, they can block statewide policies. They do not need to be in power, to have a lasting impact on the German democracy. Given the current trend and that a not functional government leads to even more votes for the far right, it still looks bleak.
Agreed
It's something, I'll take it. I suppose I shouldn't underestimate Germany's fondness for legal systems and bureaucracy, even if I'm sad cultural change efforts haven't been as successful as I had hoped.