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Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving linked to hundreds of crashes, dozens of deaths
(www.theverge.com)
this post was submitted on 27 Apr 2024
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As is “autopilot”. There’s no automatic pilot. You’re still expected to keep your hands on the wheel and your eyes on the road.
I am so sick and tired of this belief because it's clear people have no idea what Autopilot on a plane actually does. They always seem to assume it flies the plane and the pilot doesn't do anything apparently. Autopilot alone does not fly the damned plane by itself.
"Autopilot" in a plane keeps the wings level at a set heading, altitude, and speed. It's literally the same as cruise control with lane-centering, since there's an altitude issue on a road.
There are more advanced systems available on the market that can be installed on smaller planes and in use on larger jets that can do things like auto takeoff, auto land, following waypoints, etc. without pilot input, but basic plain old autopilot doesn't do any of that.
That expanded capability is similar to how things like "Enhanced Autopilot" on a Tesla can do extra things like change lanes, follow highway exits on a navigated route, etc. Or how "Full Self-Driving" is supposed to follow road signs and lights, etc. but those are additional functions, not part of "Autopilot" and differentiated with their own name.
Autopilot, either on a plane or a Tesla, alone doesn't do any of that extra shit. It is a very basic system.
The average person misunderstanding what a word means doesn't make it an incorrect name or description.
I say let Tesla market it as Autopilot if they pass similar regulatory safety frameworks as aviation autopilot functions.
“But one reason that pilots will opt to turn the system on much sooner after taking off is if it’s stormy out or there is bad weather. During storms and heavy fog, pilots will often turn autopilot on as soon as possible.
This is because the autopilot system can take over much of the flying while allowing the pilot to concentrate on other things, such as avoiding the storms as much as possible. Autopilot can also be extremely helpful when there is heavy fog and it’s difficult to see, since the system does not require eyesight like humans do.”
Does that sound like something Tesla’s autopilot can do?
https://www.skytough.com/post/when-do-pilots-turn-on-autopilot
This is GPT.
After that intro I don't trust a single word of what that site has to say.
If the writer didn't bother to write the text, i hope they don't expect me to bother to read it.
Why in the world would you think that’s gpt? That’s not the normal style of gpt and it’s definitely the style of normal corporate sites.
I'd wager most people, when talking about a plane's autopilot mean the follow waypoints or Autoland capability.
Also, it's hard to argue "full self driving" means anything but the car is able to drive fully autonomously. If they were to market it as "advanced driver assist" I'd have no issue with it.
Many people are also pretty stupid when it comes to any sort of technology more complicated than a calculator. That doesn't mean the world revolves around a complete lack of knowledge.
My issue is just with people expecting basic Autopilot to do more than it's designed or intended to do, and refusing to acknowledge their expectation might actually be wrong.
Definitely won't get an argument from me there. FSD certainly isn't in a state to really be called that yet. Although, to be fair, when signing up for it, and when activating it there are a lot of notices that it is in testing and will not operate as expected.
At what point do we start actually expecting and enforcing that people be responsible with potentially dangerous things in daily life, instead of just blaming a company for not putting enough warnings or barriers to entry?
Volvo seeks to have zero human deaths in their cars. Some places seek zero fatality driving environments. These are cultures where safety is front and center. Most FSD enthusiasts (see comments in the other threads below) cite safety as the main impetus for these systems. Hopefully we would see similar cultural values in Tesla.
Unfortunately, Musk tweets out jokes when responding to a video of people having sex on autopilot. That is Tesla culture. Musk is responsible for putting these dangerous things in consumers hands and has created a culture where irresponsible and possibly fatal abuse of those things is something funny for everyone to laugh at. Of course, punish the individual users who go against the rules and abuse the systems. You also have to punish the company, and the idiot at the top, who holds those same rules in contempt.
Then the issue is simply what we perceive as the predominant marketing message. I know that in all legally binding material Tesla states what exactly the system is capable of and how alert the driver needs to be. But in my opinion that is vastly overshadowed by the advertising Tesla runs for their FSD capability. They show a 5 second message about how they are required by law to warn you about being alert at all times, before showing the car driving itself for 3 minutes, with the demo driver having the hands completely off the wheel.
Please, most people don't know how to use a scientific calculator at all.
I never said it was a scientific calculator.
Fair enough
Factually incorrect. There are autopilot systems on planes now that can takeoff, fly, and land the flight on their own. So yes, "autopilot" is EXACTLY what people are assuming it to mean in many cases. Especially on planes that they would typically be accustom to... which is the big airliners.
Now where you're missing the point... There are varying degrees of autopilot. And that would be fine and dandy for Tesla's case if you wish to invoke it. But considering the company has touted it to be the "most advanced" and "Full self driving" and "will be able to drive you from california to new york on it's own". They've set the expectation in that it is the most advanced autopilot. Akin to the plane that doesn't actually need a pilot (although one is always present) for all three major parts of the flight. No tesla product comes even close to that claim, and I'm willing to bet they never do in their lifetime.
I have said from the beginning that there are varying levels of Autopilot on planes and that needs to be taken into account when talking about the name and capabilities... that's my entire argument you illiterate fool.
You are, at best, failing to acknowledge, or more likely, willfully ignoring the fact that Tesla does differentiate these capabilities with differently named products. All while claiming that a plane Autopilot must inherently be the most advanced version on the market to be compared to Tesla's most basic offering.
You are adding in capabilities from the more advanced offerings that Tesla has, like Enhanced Autopilot, and Full Self Driving and saying those are part of "Autopilot". If you want to compare basic Tesla Autopilot, then compare it to a basic plane Autopilot. Tesla doesn't claim that basic "Autopilot" can do all the extra stuff, that's why they have the other options.
That's the issue I have with these conversations, people are always comparing apples and oranges, and trying to claim that they're not to try and justify their position.
Tesla's website does indicate these differences between the versions, and has as each added capability was added to the overall offerings.
No. That whole statement INCLUDING what you quoted was me allowing you to invoke it.
Literally : "And that would be fine and dandy for Tesla’s case if you wish to invoke it." Then I stated why that's bad to invoke.
You can claim I'm willfully ignorant. But you're just a moron Elon shill.
And there's why I'm just going to call you a moron Elon shill and move on. You're full of shit. All they do is claim that it's amazing/perfect. Then you buy the car and you expect the function and it doesn't do it, not even close.
Ah yes, the classic internet response of calling anyone you disagree with a shill. Because clearly someone disagreeing with you and pointing out issues with claims means they must inherently be defending a company without any valid claims. Easy to ignore when you don't consider them a real person having a discussion.
No point in arguing with someone unwilling to have an actual discussion and just resorting to calling someone a shill because they refuse to accept a different point of view can even exist.
"You're a shill, so nothing you say matters".
When you outright lie about the facts it's hard to have any other opinion about you. So yes, you're a shill
I haven't said a single lie. What do you think is a lie?
Tesla does differentiate the capabilities of Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Driving. They do not claim that basic Autopilot will do the more advanced functions, they specifically refer to FSD when making those claims.
Aircraft Autopilot systems DO vary in capability, and a basic Autopilot system there DOES have similar functionality to basic Tesla Autopilot.
People DO try to directly compare Tesla's most basic Autopilot to the most cutting-edge aircraft Autopilot systems instead of comparing it to basic systems.
Which I've already established is a fair assessment as most passenger planes DO have those functions. You ignored this. And continued to repeat your bullshit. Most people will not be familiar with the lesser autopilots (or more accurately attribute them to much older and lesser planes) because passenger airlines (the air transports more people ever get on) don't tend to have the lesser ones. You made the bold claim that these "Advanced" functions don't count in autopilot because planes don't even have it! You're FULL of it. Autoland has been around for over 50 years at this point. Hell we even have systems now (though not yet standard as far as I know) that can do autoland in emergency situations, (eg. not preprogrammed approaches/landings) https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/garmin-autoland-wins-2020-collier-trophy/.
Barely, actually let me challenge you here with one simple task... Go to their website and spec out a Tesla. When you get to the self-driving part. Find me where they define either term. Also notice the graphic that plays on the page too. I want you to specifically notice that "Auto lane change" and "Auto steer" (Which are simply "autopilot" features) are present on that definition. So when you buy a Tesla, and those features work and the ONLY time you've seen them shown was in reference to "Full Self-Driving"... This is why there's a class action going on, they do not define this shit. Or are you going to ignore that too? Notice that Tesla has started using the term "Supervised Full Self-Driving" (or Full Self-Driving (Supervised)) as a term. Because they've been caught out in the lie now and are trying to recover. If you actually want to continue this conversation in good faith you would prove that they present the differentiation at all between the two terms BEFORE a customer buys the product. Because only one thing is ever advertised and done so poorly that it insinuates both things are the same for Tesla.
Basic Autopilot is included with all Teslas now (standard as of April 2019), so it isn't an option you can select anymore in the configurator like it used to be. Enhanced Autopilot also is no longer offered, so the only upgrade listed is for FSD, because that's the only upgrade available now. It is listed separately from the included features and basic upgrades like paint color, wheel choice, and interior options.
The relevant linked support page at https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot goes into specific detail about what is included with both currently available options.
All the functions listed with the FSD upgrade, are NOT included with basic Autopilot and never have been. Enhanced Autopilot, when it was offered, included all the currently listed FSD options other than Autosteer on City Streets and Traffic and Stop Sign Control.
I used the Model 3 for reference, in case different options are there for higher end models.
Well, you're wrong there. Auto lane change is NOT part of basic Autopilot and never has been. That is part of Enhanced Autopilot and FSD. Also, there are two options for Autosteer listed and differentiated based on road type. Autosteer under the Autopilot option is lane-keeping on highways, it even specifies that in its definition. FSD on the other hand specifically says "Autosteer on city streets".
Where?
"Assists in steering within a clearly marked lane, and uses traffic-aware cruise control"
Where is "highways only" defined? Even their new definitions aren't consistent.
And great... I have to dig through support pages to find it!
Which exactly 0 competitors do. Hyundai, Toyota, Volvo... every company page I look at makes it abundantly clear what comes on the product (on the sale page) without digging through support pages. You know what else they do? Specify the feature without calling it some "fancy" shit. Adaptive cruise control is called out as just that. Not renamed to "Traffic-Aware Cruise Control" and then hidden under "Autopilot" with a vague definition and only presented to you at the sale page under "Full Self-Driving".
Here's a snippet from the user manual of a Model 3 2022... (I've reformatted it a little bit... cause the raw copy-pasta was atrocious)
And another snippet from a model 3 2020 manual...
So is smart summon, Auto Lane change, Navigate on Autopilot, an FSD thing? Or an Autopilot thing? I thought that Autopilot was just super simple? I thought the features WERE NEVER included in autopilot definition... And yet YEARS of manuals for the damn product says you're wrong. And that their current definitions have been modified.
Autopilot according to Tesla's OWN manuals is the feature set that ALL other "smart" driving features fall under. Just like with plane-based autopilots funny enough. But you do you man. There's no changing your mind on this and you've made that clear long ago. I just hope that others see how absurd this all is.
Edit:
Also would like to see where that definition is... Cause you used the term... but it doesn't exist anywhere else.
Edit2: https://tesla-info.com/doc/mx/model_x_owners_manual_north_america_en_2019_0.pdf
For Model X as well (and in NA in case you're going to say "other regions")... Check page 95 in the pdf... Weird that a 2019 Model X has all those features labeled as "Autopilot" too eh?
Edit3: Minor formatting issue.