'tankie' is 'woke' for liberals just saying
this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2023
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No it's an insult for red fascists
Explaining a meaningless insult using another one kind of just proves his point
"You don't tolerate Nazis? Perhaps YOU are the REAL Nazis"
Why are you people all the same? Do you get a 50 Cent Army script or something?
I fail to see how your first statement has anything to do with my comment. Of course I don’t tolerate Nazis, fascists or anything of the sort and trying to lump your idea of ‘tankies’ into this category does remind me of what conservatives and reactionaries sometimes do with ‘woke’ Also just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I’m one of ‘you people’ ‘tankies’ ‘red fascists’ or wumaos and you are just lumping me in with anyone who you associate with being part of that vague group. Just because I don’t agree with you on any issue doesn’t mean that I’m a state propagandist.
I fail to see how your first statement has anything to do with my comment.
Not surprising
Maybe you could try explaining your reasoning to me instead of immediately comparing me to the Nazis?
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What would you call the position that defends authoritarian communism even to the point of justifying genocide and brutal suppression of opposition and free press?
at what level of desperation do you have to be that you look at totalitarian states and decide they're the forefront of leftism in the world, instead of just like, admitting they didn't work and trying to avoid the mistakes they made? seriously, why? in an ideology and belief system heavily entrenched in nuance why do you view the world in black and white? why is it being a "lib" to say that governments who repress the human rights and civil liberties of minorities are not practicing leftism in good faith? the same governments who have horrifically and violently crushed workers rights movements? who have enforced crippling wealth inequality in their own borders? do you even know what leftism is?
Some strawman stuff here. Define authoritarian? I look at the US and cant think of a better description. Seriously. I support Cuba. Oh but state control of economic structure you tankie!!!
It's a pejorative used to stop talking is all. Id rather actually engage in dialogue instead of shouting memes at each other
The state owning the means of production is no better than capitalists. Only when the workers control it themselves will communism be achieved and settling for anything less shouldn't be accepted
I get your general point, but I'd like to say that theoretically you could have a socialist system where the state owns the means of production for certain industries and the workers would have control through the state as long as the state is an actual functioning democracy.
The problem, of course, is that states with that much power almost always devolve into authoritarianism because of the corrupting force of power.
All I'm trying to say is that, if done right, you could have actual worker control via the state as long as the state is actually listening to and, in some sense, subservient to the people.
This is no way defends the state capitalism we see in China and Russia since they are not even close to a functioning democracy.
States with that much power will always devolve into authoritarianism. If there is a power structure, it will be corrupted. That's the issue.
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Supporting Cuba doesn't a tankie make: Good arguments can be had that Cuba is actually a democracy, and not in the "democracy is when party rules" kind of way. Supporting North Korea, OTOH...
@lemmybrucelee @lobster_teapot Go back to lemmygrad bootlicker
I actually think of capitalists as the real bootlickers but I definitely agree shouting names at each other online is the quickest way to change someone's opinion! I have seen the light!
Fun fact: you can be opposed to capitalism without being a communist.
You [tankies] maybe opposed to capitalism, but you're still in favor of the coercive control of individuals by a state-level entity. That's just another flavor of authoritarianism.
you can be opposed to capitalism without being a communist
Feudalism might make a comeback lads
Feudalism will be different this time we swear.
You'll get to vote on a lord to rule the town, and they'll get to vote on the barons to rule over each barony, and each barony will basically be its own country anyway so they maintain the right to secede and stuff like that, and the barons will get to elect a monarch and a council to advise them who will rule the country.
So you see it's totally democratic and it definitely won't turn into a de facto autocracy that's not meaningfully different from regular feudalism this time
you’re still in favor of the coercive control of individuals by a state-level entity.
Find one.
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You're just licking a different boot. All forms of hierarchy need to be abolished. State and capitalist. You don't advocate for workers, all you advocate for is state control.
damn brb gonna tell xi to press the gommunism button thank you internet anarchist for showing us it was that easy, we just had to take a quick look at your list of successful revolutions to take inspiration from
Maybe quite stabbing us in the back and practice some of that "left unity" you tankies love to preach about
Perfect projection, no notes
We'd have more than two if it hadn't been for tankies stabbing us in the back. But go, go on, tell me how Makhno was a counter-revolutionary or something. Kulak? Or was it about not being able to tolerate a non-authoritarian alternative.
As to successful tankie revolutions... there's none. They devolved into either state capitalist tyranny, capitalist tyranny, or straight tyranny. Cuba and Vietnam don't count they were wars for independence from colonial powers first, communist second in Vietnam's case and in Cuba's fourth or fifth or something.
We’d have more than two if it hadn’t been for tankies stabbing us in the back.
This is a phrase that keeps popping up in anarchist spaces but once you look at what it makes reference to it's... Simply not true? It's mostly used to refer to the Spanish Civil War, but one only needs to pick up a high school history book to learn that the May Days were a result of the anarchists attempting to antagonize the entirety of the Republican side by hindering war efforts, and not only the PCE or other Soviet-alligned communists, who held a rather small amount of power inside the Republican government.
But go, go on, tell me how Makhno was a counter-revolutionary or something. Kulak? Or was it about not being able to tolerate a non-authoritarian alternative.
If to not be authoritarian is a priority for you, reading Voline's accounts of his participation in the makhnovist movement should be enough to realize that his project is probably not the one you want to rally behind the most.
Just ignore the Zapatistas who are a current example of anarchism in practice.
And saying the Soviets held little power in the Spanish Republic is just a bald faced lie. The Soviets withheld supplies from non-soviet militias and actively damaged the war effort because they'd rather focus on garnering power than actually fighting fascists.
Just ignore the Zapatistas who are a current example of anarchism in practice.
Their words, not mine. Yes, the Zapatista project has worked at their current scale and is doing well, I have no problems admiting that. That does not mean however that I think their methods would work on a larger scale, especially if they ever became a threat for imperial capitalism to be attacked with military force beyond attempting to contain them inside Chiapas as they have until now. As it happened to the USSR facing invasion during the Russian Civil War, as it happened to Cuba with the Bay of Pigs invasion and as it happened to Vietnam. And the Zapatistas do so too, as they claim that they are not driven by ideological purities and will adopt whatever it is that works for them.
And saying the Soviets held little power in the Spanish Republic is just a bald faced lie.
I said that the PCE and the Soviet-alligned communists had a rather small amount of power within the Republican government, and that is not a lie. The PCE only controlled three ministries within the government during the May Days, which is the event seen as the "betrayal" that led to the anarchists' demise in Spain.
Soviets withheld supplies from non-soviet militias and actively damaged the war effort because they’d rather focus on garnering power than actually fighting fascists.
It is hard to work with abstract mentions, but I am willing to address this if you use more specific examples of Soviet sabotage of the war effort that I can look at and work with.
Edit: formatting.
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Common 196 W
yall havent gone back to reddit yet?
Sorry but you don’t own the entire fediverse.
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After World War I, I made my living in Paris, now as a retoucher at a photographer’s, now as painter of “Chinese antiquities” (made in France!). I would distribute leaflets denouncing the crimes committed by the French colonialists in Viet Nam.
At that time, I supported the October Revolution only instinctively, not yet grasping all its historic importance. I loved and admired Lenin because he was a great patriot who liberated his compatriots; until then, I had read none of his books.
The reason for my joining the French Socialist Party was that these “ladies and gentlemen” - as I called my comrades at that moment - has shown their sympathy towards me, towards the struggle of the oppressed peoples. But I understood neither what was a party, a trade-union, nor what was socialism nor communism.
Heated discussions were then taking place in the branches of the Socialist Party, about the question whether the Socialist Party should remain in the Second International, should a Second and a half International be founded or should the Socialist Party join Lenin’s Third International? I attended the meetings regularly, twice or thrice a week and attentively listened to the discussion. First, I could not understand thoroughly. Why were the discussions so heated? Either with the Second, Second and a half or Third International, the revolution could be waged. What was the use of arguing then? As for the First International, what had become of it?
What I wanted most to know - and this precisely was not debated in the meetings - was: which International sides with the peoples of colonial countries?
I raised this question - the most important in my opinion - in a meeting. Some comrades answered: It is the Third, not the Second International. And a comrade gave me Lenin’s “Thesis on the national and colonial questions” published by l'Humanite to read.
There were political terms difficult to understand in this thesis. But by dint of reading it again and again, finally I could grasp the main part of it. What emotion, enthusiasm, clear-sightedness and confidence it instilled into me! I was overjoyed to tears. Though sitting alone in my room, I shouted out aloud as if addressing large crowds: “Dear martyrs compatriots! This is what we need, this is the path to our liberation!”
After then, I had entire confidence in Lenin, in the Third International.
Formerly, during the meetings of the Party branch, I only listened to the discussion; I had a vague belief that all were logical, and could not differentiate as to who were right and who were wrong. But from then on, I also plunged into the debates and discussed with fervour. Though I was still lacking French words to express all my thoughts, I smashed the allegations attacking Lenin and the Third International with no less vigour. My only argument was: “If you do not condemn colonialism, if you do not side with the colonial people, what kind of revolution are you waging?”
Not only did I take part in the meetings of my own Party branch, but I also went to other Party branches to lay down “my position”. Now I must tell again that Comrades Marcel Cachin, Vaillant Couturier, Monmousseau and many others helped me to broaden my knowledge. Finally, at the Tours Congress, I voted with them for our joining the Third International.
At first, patriotism, not yet communism, led me to have confidence in Lenin, in the Third International. Step by step, along the struggle, by studying Marxism-Leninism parallel with participation in practical activities, I gradually came upon the fact that only socialism and communism can liberate the oppressed nations and the working people throughout the world from slavery.
There is a legend, in our country as well as in China, on the miraculous “Book of the Wise”. When facing great difficulties, one opens it and finds a way out. Leninism is not only a miraculous “book of the wise”, a compass for us Vietnamese revolutionaries and people: it is also the radiant sun illuminating our path to final victory, to socialism and communism.
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