this post was submitted on 13 May 2024
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[–] [email protected] 83 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The Romans really turned around that archaic Latin.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Personally I always thought it was easier to have the line on the left side and then the different stuff on the right side. Probably from being right handed.

Eg: B D E H K L M N P R

Those all have a line on the left and the right side differs

[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Not sure if true but I did hear somewhere that a big part of the Roman changes were to make carving letters into stone tablets and buildings easier.

It certainly explains using more straight lines in eg M and N. But maybe the flip also makes it easier to carve if you're chiseling right handed? I'm imagining how I'd chisel a K.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

I can only think that writing on parchment was more common.

[–] [email protected] 50 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Fun fact, in the Arabic alphabet it starts out Alif and Ba just like alpha and beta here, and then veers way away from this chart into its own awesomely weird territory (thought German was “guttural”? try this nonvowel nonconsonant so far back in the throat you need consent and a physician’s referral) but JUST when you think you’ve lost your way, RIGHT the alphabet nears its end, you stop and stare because right there are four letters, in this same exact order, so familiar it might be a song you learned as a child: the letters K L M N.

The Phoencians took this invention to other places too, and this cluster of familiarity crystallised in the Arabic alphabet in the same order. Almost like a gene we could point to that says we had a common ancestor centuries ago, we were once so close that we learned the same thing from the same people.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago (2 children)

“Almost like a gene we could point to that says we had a common ancestor centuries ago, we were once so close that we learned the same thing from the same people.“

Cultural genes are called memes. It’s kind of unfortunate that we usually only think of memes as jokes.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Kind of ironic that you're complaining about the evolution of language on a post about the evolution of language.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

Idk. Definitions change. Like, literally

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 5 months ago (1 children)

This chart does show different stages of alphabet in the lineage of the Modern Latin Alphabet. But these changes happened due to parallel interactions with other languages and alphabets not shown, so it is a little obscuring to call it an 'evolution'. Probably being overly pedantic but that's kind of the realm of linguistics.

Pretty cool nonetheless.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago

I was a little disappointed they didn't show letters that were removed from the modern Latin alphabet but existed in the 2000 years since Rome, like thorn.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 5 months ago (2 children)

So Z became I, and I became Z? Weird.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I don’t know about you being a Z, but I always fancied the idea U and I.

…meh I dunno, there’s got to be some clever wordplay in there somewhere. Anyone more intelligent want to chip in?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 5 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago

...is this loss?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago

Such tender words.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

First thing I noticed too. Odd how something like that happens. Reminds me of the Jim Gaffigan male seahorse joke.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 5 months ago

How did 'I' evolve into 'Z' while 'Z' evolved into 'I'? Seems like a good ol' switcheroo.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 5 months ago (5 children)

I wonder what caused the alphabet to essentially get mirror flipped from archaic Latin to Roman.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 5 months ago (2 children)

If by "ancient Latin alphabet" you mean the alphabet as depicted in charts like this you're talking about the Archaic alphabet, not the alphabet the Romans used for Classical Latin. The Romans after the Archaic Period used the same alphabet as we do (with minor additions depending on our precise European language), at least in inscriptions--Roman cursive is very different in form. The charts you're looking at are very misleading, in that Latin was written in the Archaic Period either right to left or boustrephedon, alternating direction with each line. But these are only the very earliest Latin inscriptions. By the time Latin really starts to be used regularly as a written language it is being written left to right, with the letters oriented to suit.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Yeah I wasn’t really sure how knowledgeable Matt Baker from usefulcharts is in ancient languages. Until I see actual sources I’m treating this chart as nothing more than guess work.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago

Skepticism is always a safe bet lol.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

He discusses most of that in his video - https://youtu.be/3kGuN8WIGNc

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago

At one point during the flip every letter were written sideways which gave us the infamous archaic roman phrase "IIII IIII IIII"

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

One dyslexic roman emperor is my guess. I have no evidence to base this on.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago (1 children)

⨂︎ and ⌽︎ not getting the love they deserve.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (4 children)

Ф is getting enough love in Cyrillic languages.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The step from Proto-Sinaitic to Phoenician is like the 2015-2020 era when companies simplified their logos to an extreme degree.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I have absolutely zero expertise in the field, but every time you see something like that in history, I always wonder if it was primarily spurred on by a change in writing medium. E.g. paper vs tablet.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago (2 children)

The funny thing is went from tablet, to paper, to tablet.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago

It would have been cool if it included the modern Greek and Cyrillic alphabets as well

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Pour one out for my bois:

  • PlayStation accept + cancel combo
  • electric pole
  • the actual M
  • tree
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[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago

Never change, T

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago (3 children)

All this talk of archaic to Roman and no talk of how serifs are being done dirty.

Serif bias aside, awesome.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I wonder what the next stage is going to look like, if changed at all in the future?

[–] [email protected] 38 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

❤️💀😭🔥🫶✅✨😊😂🫡🙂‍🥰🙏👍😍👀🫠🫂🤓🎉🗿

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

Love, death, tears. Eternal damnation is caused by human emotion. The correct path is in the stars. Humanity laughs gayly as they salute their fellow man and idolize him. Prayer is the answer, we watch lovingly as god watches us. We film the bumbling nerd as he falls to the ground, we celebrate the ancient athlete.

😊💩🤡

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

Fuck.. Hahahaha

[–] blx 8 points 5 months ago

Is "L" drunk or something?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago

I think it's a miracle that people 2000 years ago were using the same alphabet as us. I guess it just goes to show how important the longevity of recorded information is.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

Also known as the "reading rainbow"

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

One of the best videos if you want to learn more https://youtu.be/sg2j7mZ9-2Y

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

Very cool.

I'm not sure what a channel dedicated to this would even be called, but I would be so down for that.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

So "A" evolved from cattle. Must of been from the Angus breed.

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