Time and economic development. Social development has not caught up with economic development because the pace of economic development has been ridiculous.
this post was submitted on 15 May 2024
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Be more specific. What do you consider "conservative"? What do you consider "progressive"?
By "socially progressive", I am referring to the things we usually refer to when it comes to social progress: acceptance of LGBTQ+, rights for women, anti-racism, respect for youth and elderly, etc.
By "conservative", it would mean opposition to such advances in social progress.
I'm not the best at wording this.
I can't speak for China, only Vietnam.
LGBTQ+
When it comes to LGBT, we are generally quite indifferent to it. It is not our jobs to interfere in other people's business. That was my impression of our social attitude towards queer people.
Legally speaking however, our laws are still behind in some aspects, such as not yet recognizing same-sex marriage, but it does not ban it either. Same-sex couples are allowed to held symbolic weddings as well as living together under the same roof. It's just that they won't enjoy the same legal rights and obligations as required for hetero couples. But fret not, our laws are getting more and more open, it was more open in the 201X than the 200X, and it will not doubt be more open in the future.
Women rights
The Communist Party of Vietnam in all its time of existence has been tirelessly advance women right and gender equality. I can confidently say that right now, I can feel no social discrimination between men and women. Women occupy just as many jobs as men do. In my household, my father and my mother are equal in decision making.
Anti-racism
I don't think racism is relevant to Vietnam.
But we do have ethnic minorities (I am of Nùng ethnicity, while the overwhelming majority of Vietnamese population is of Kinh). Ethnic minorities often receive favorable aids from the government in term of poverty eradication and education.
Respect for youth and elderly
Our culture inherits Confucian elements, and our government encourages positive traits such as filial piety while discouraging negative traits that are no longer compatible with modern time and socialism.
As a Chinese person, I can share my own observations from both online and real life:
LGBTQ+ There is almost no public promotion of LGBTQ+ issues in China. LGBTQ+ individuals are not considered a mainstream group, and most people are indifferent to them. Online, many references to LGBTQ+ are just jokes or memes meant to entertain, not necessarily to mock the community. For instance, phrases like "Bro, you smell so good" are popular online jokes. In real life, if you are part of the LGBTQ+ community, it doesn't really matter to most people; everyone has their own life. However, if LGBTQ+ individuals try to date heterosexuals, it usually leads to discomfort. If a child wants to identify as LGBTQ+, it depends on their parents, and most parents do not approve. Also, since LGBTQ+ concepts are seen as coming from Western countries, some LGBTQ+ individuals who are perceived as overly admiring Western culture can face backlash. Chinese public opinion generally acknowledges heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality, but concepts like "72 genders" and "gender fluidity" are seen as incomprehensible. Phrases like "My gender is an attack helicopter, and I want to screw a tank" are commonly used to mock the plethora of gender identities in the West.
Women's Rights As a socialist country, women's rights are well-protected in China. Prostitution is illegal (to combat human trafficking). In stable government jobs, women make up a large proportion. However, there are some peculiarities: women have maternity leave, and some declare pregnancy right after being hired to receive paid maternity leave and then resign afterward. In government jobs, some women may claim they cannot handle the workload and pass their responsibilities to male colleagues or other female colleagues, leading to a form of hidden hiring discrimination in some companies and government units.
Anti-Racism Chinese people generally focus on a person's actions rather than their race. Discrimination tends to be based on an individual's behavior, regardless of skin color or ethnicity. Ethnic minorities in China receive preferential treatment, with special funds to promote their traditional cultures and extra points on college entrance exams. However, as the economic conditions of some minorities have become comparable to the Han majority, places like Shandong are considering abolishing these extra points. Ethnic minorities like Tibetans and Mongolians also have the option to take their college entrance exams in their native languages. During my university years, Mongolian students often joked that they didn’t ride horses to school.
Respect for Youth and the Elderly I don't quite understand the concept of "respecting the youth." Is it similar to bowing to someone in Japan? In China, as the birthplace of Confucianism, respecting the elderly and caring for the young are considered traditional virtues and are commonly practiced in daily life. However, due to the "Peng Yu case," where a judge asked, "If you didn't knock the old person down, why did you help them up?" many people are now wary of helping fallen elderly individuals for fear of being extorted (which has happened multiple times). Such extortionists are referred to as "taking advantage of their old age."
I think "respecting the youth" is trying to figure out how the older generations view the younger generations.
In the USA, there is a pretty strong current of "anybody younger than me" is always inferior, lesser, worse. So a younger person's opinion is attacked or ignored by someone who is older no matter how correct a younger person's opinion may be.
It could be understood as, "When do the the older generations accept the younger generations as a peer?" or "When do the younger generations become accepted by the older generations as an equal?"
In China, there is an old saying used by the elderly to criticize the young: "I have eaten more salt than you have eaten rice." Nowadays, young people respond to stubborn elders with, "Old thing, you should have blown up your gold coins by now."“老东西，早该爆金币了” .It's like defeating a boss and getting loot.Some older people are still reasonable, and there is a consensus in China that young people are considered "energetic," "the future of China," and "the sun at eight or nine in the morning."
In modern Chinese history, young people were the main force in revolutions. During the New Culture Movement, young Chinese fought against the rigid and dogmatic elders who adhered to "ancient teachings" and "ancestral laws." In the May Fourth Movement, students mobilized workers and the petty bourgeoisie to prevent further colonial infringement on China's sovereignty (such as the transfer of Shandong from Germany to Japan, even though China was considered a victor in World War I).《少年中国说》 "The Young China" essay from the New Culture Movement is something every Chinese middle school student learns. Publicly belittling young people can only happen in small circles; on the internet and in real life, such behavior will be ridiculed.
If we look at it from a family perspective, unfortunately, most Chinese people believe that children should listen to their parents. Of course, extreme control over children is also criticized in China. How important a child's personal thoughts are depends on the parents.
If you are referring to expressing political views, people may criticize each other based on differing political opinions, but they won't discriminate against you just because you are young, and there are no special privileges either.
In terms of politics, in China, one must start from the grassroots level to enter politics. Even if you have connections, it can only speed up your promotion slightly (if too fast, unless you are very capable, you will be reported to the discipline inspection commission as there is no shortage of competitors in officialdom). Therefore, many Chinese politicians are already middle-aged or elderly because people generally believe they have more experience and stability.
You might want to look at 《风波》"The Gale" from Lu Xun's 《呐喊》"Call to Arms" during the New Culture Movement, which might be similar to what you mentioned.
I have no real input in this discussion other than reading it and being fascinated. I just wanted to say that I love the phrase: the sun at eight or nine in the morning.
Gender fluidity has been acknowledged by most human societies going back thousands of years though. It's disappoint but slightly understandable that people in China use "helicopter" jokes, but the "I want to screw a tank" is funny AF
Thank you. This was very informative
I once saw an interesting video made by people in the Shanghai LGBTQ+ scene. I haven't been able to find it since but I hope someone knows which video I mean.
Don't think this is the same one. But this is great
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
China is relatively conservative in shit like LGBTQ rights. I think China can be a bit more progressive in that regard. Another one is a long overdue series of crackdowns on their private sector.
BTW, I recommend following @darrion_nguyen on Twitter if you want to know more about Vietnam, he is more knowledgeable than me regarding Vietnam and anything geopolitics.
Normally, economic development comes before social development, as occurred in the West younger generations are more openly socially progressive
They are becoming more progressive, just slowly. They tried going faster in the cultural revolution, and it was disastrous.
It might feel painfully slow compared to Western progressivism, but that's because it's educating and incrementing generationally so that the changes happen with the popular support of billions of people, and they stick.
In the West they will force progressive values into law while half or more of the population still oppose it, and so they move 3 steps forward but then 2-4 steps backward as they flutter between parties in their circus democracies.
Look at women's rights like abortion and workplace equality. The gig economy is less than 10 years old and China and Vietnam look after the welfare of workers in that new industry better. China and Vietnam are already ahead of the West in a lot of progressive respects. We'll see China having better LGBTQ rights than the West in our lifetimes.
In the meantime be wary of letting liberals cherry pick the benchmarks for measuring which place is more progressive - they'll always hyperfocus on LGBTQ for progressivism until the day the West falls behind on it (and it will), and then they'll find something else.
[edit for typo]
well, given that there's not too many news of trans people of lgbt+ people being murdered in china by policemen or reactionary neighbors being known, maybe they're not so conservative. or maybe they treat romantical relationships of any kind equally strict as something that you should keep in private, but maybe i'm wrong
One good testimony that I found on the subject is this video. What's really cool is that it's from a channel about learning the language and therefore no attempt to paint a specific reality.
On of my biggest takeaway is that there are established LGBT communities in citites that don't appear to be subjected to any external pressure so that's pretty cool
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: