this post was submitted on 02 Aug 2024
300 points (93.9% liked)

Today I Learned

17265 readers
541 users here now

What did you learn today? Share it with us!

We learn something new every day. This is a community dedicated to informing each other and helping to spread knowledge.

The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:

Rules (interactive)


Rule 1- All posts must begin with TIL. Linking to a source of info is optional, but highly recommended as it helps to spark discussion.

** Posts must be about an actual fact that you have learned, but it doesn't matter if you learned it today. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.**



Rule 2- Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.

Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.



Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.

Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.



Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.

That's it.



Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.

Posts and comments which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.



Rule 6- Regarding non-TIL posts.

Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-TIL posts using the [META] tag on your post title.



Rule 7- You can't harass or disturb other members.

If you vocally harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.

For further explanation, clarification and feedback about this rule, you may follow this link.



Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.



Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.

Let everyone have their own content.



Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.

Unless included in our Whitelist for Bots, your bot will not be allowed to participate in this community. To have your bot whitelisted, please contact the moderators for a short review.



Partnered Communities

You can view our partnered communities list by following this link. To partner with our community and be included, you are free to message the moderators or comment on a pinned post.

Community Moderation

For inquiry on becoming a moderator of this community, you may comment on the pinned post of the time, or simply shoot a message to the current moderators.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

This is the first I've heard of it, but here's one of his infamous quotes:

"There is a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity, maybe it’s a kind of lack of generosity towards non-Jews.

I mean, there’s always a reason why anti-anything crops up anywhere; even a stinker like Hitler didn’t just pick on them for no reason.”

His other quotes tend to be condemnation about specifically Israeli zionism and barbaric murder, but i don't have context as to whether he's referring to palestine or not. Some people might have more sympathy for these statements these days, but a lot of his other quotes have to do with Jews controlling money and media, less defensible prejudice.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (38 children)

I was called into this thread to give my opinion as a bona fide and official Jew. I will say this about Roald Dahl- yes, he was an antisemite. But I still grew up with his books. Even my dad, who was incredibly sensitive to antisemitism and definitely knew about Dahl could not deny that he was an amazing writer both of children's books and macabre adult fiction. I remember specifically that he gave me The Twits when I was a kid, while at my also very sensitive to antisemitism grandparents' house. I don't remember others he gave me, but I really enjoyed that one, so I remember it.

I don't know, I guess we all have the occasional intentional blind spot for these things. Sometimes people are just so talented that you have to overlook their flaws. Of course, some flaws can't be overlooked. I won't watch a Woody Allen film anymore. I won't watch the work of a pedophile.

But Roald Dahl's racism was one where didn't actually do anything to hurt Jews. As the quote says, he wasn't even pro-Hitler. So I can get past it due to his talent. He was not the real danger to my ancestors in his lifetime and he was not responsible for a genocide. On top of that, he didn't extend his bigotry to any of his novels that I ever read.

You can't say as much for H. G. Wells, who had a virulently antisemitic moment in War of the Worlds. It's considered a classic these days. And what about beloved Charles Dickens' novel Oliver Twist? I would bet that the character of Fagin caused a lot more issues with British Jews than anything Roald Dahl said or did considering that novel was and is so popular that 19 films based on it have been made, including one based on a hit Broadway musical.

Piece of shit rapist Roman Polanski made a straight remake as recently as 2005 (and that's just weird because he's Jewish). It did really well at the box office and got a lot of positive reviews.

Imagine if a book with a character that was a disgusting caricature of a black person in it who is also one of the villains of the book and they were still making movies about it within our lifetime.

Edit: Also re Oliver Twist, I hear that in the version Alec Guinness is in, he's an especially antisemitic Fagin, but I'm going to choose to never watch it and pretend that isn't true because that man was amazing. Never mind Star Wars, ever see Kind Hearts and Coronets? He plays 8 members of the same family- believably- including a woman.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago

Jonathan Pryce received a fair bit of criticism in the nineties for his "politically correct" (read, not explicitly antisemitic) portrayal of Fagin in the musical Oliver!. Listening back to the cast recording, it's actually a revelation — Reviewing the Situation, which had always been played for antisemitic laughs, is suddenly revealed as an incredibly powerful song, brimming with pathos.

load more comments (37 replies)
[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I much prefer this stance to shutting down the museum. They acknowledge the issue in a way that allows people to form opinions and act in a way they are comfortable with.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago

Definitely, this was the right move by the museum.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 month ago (1 children)

don't have context as to whether he's referring to palestine or not

In 1990, during an interview with The Independent, Dahl explained that his issue with Israel began when they invaded Lebanon in 1982. "they killed 22,000 civilians when they bombed Beirut. It was very much hushed up in the newspapers because they are primarily Jewish-owned. I'm certainly anti-Israeli and I've become antisemitic in as much as that you get a Jewish person in another country like England strongly supporting Zionism. I think they should see both sides. It's the same old thing: we all know about Jews and the rest of it. There aren't any non-Jewish publishers anywhere, they control the media—jolly clever thing to do—that's why the president of the United States has to sell all this stuff to Israel."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roald_Dahl

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago

I didn't realize he was referring specifically to Lebanon. Thank you for that context.

I have that quote in another comment somewhere.

That's what I was referencing when I was saying people can probably relate to his anti-israeli stance because of recent events.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

He doesn't need to be specifically referring Gaza when speaking about the large scale land theft and genocide of the Palestinian people perpetrated by the state of Israel. The region of Palestine was stolen, not just area that is Gaza.

Israel was created largely because powerful people in Europe wanted the Jewish people out of Europe. Its very foundations are antisemitic. These notions of a Jewish state in Palestine started to have widespread antisemitic support before WWII and immediately after WWI.

Dahl may have been the type of bigot to be antisemitic and against Zionism. They aren't directly linked hand in hand.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

"He doesn't need to be specifically referring Gaza when speaking about the large scale land theft and genocide of the Palestinian people perpetrated by the state of Israel."

I doubt he was.

"Dahl may have been the type of bigot to be antisemitic and against Zionism. They aren't directly linked hand in hand."

Yes, those views are precisely his stated prejudices in the above quotes.

He doesn't seem to have linked those two instances directly or causally, each is a skewed reasoming for why he doesn't like jews in general, within or without Israel.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 month ago (2 children)

When an interviewer asked Maurice Sendak (of Where the Wild Things Are fame) about Dahl, his response was memorable: "The cruelty in his books is off-putting. Scary guy. I know he's very popular but what's nice about this guy? He's dead, that's what's nice about him."

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yep, he was a piece of shit in many ways.

The stories are still pretty great, though.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago

The stories are undeniably fantastic, how else was he a piece of shit?

Let me TIL something else about the guy.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The reality is that most people are terrible people, especially when we look at them years later, once the dust has settled.

(Look into what Dr. Seuss did to his first wife)

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I remember reading a similar "dark" article about seuss.

Cheated on her?

Yes, cheated on her while she had an incurable wasting disease and married her friend.

"Helen Geisel struggled for more than a decade with partial paralysis from Guillain-Barré syndrome. Depressed by her worsening symptoms and possibly by suspicions of her husband’s affair with a close friend who would become his second wife, Helen took her own life in October 1967 at the age of 69. “I am too old and enmeshed in everything you do and are, that I cannot conceive of life without you,” read her suicide note. “My going will leave quite a rumor, but you can say I was overworked and overwrought. Your reputation with your friends and fans will not be harmed.”"

Let's all try to be kinder.

I will.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

He was a POS, much like Lovecraft and Rowling.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago (6 children)

Someone else mentioned this, but didn't follow up with any examples.

I am ready to TIL, how else was Roald Dahl a POS?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

The racism definitely; that's the topic of the original post actually, but there are a lot of oblique references to him being a bad person aside from his racism, but nobody has provided any examples yet.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Here is a list of controversial actions and statements attributed to Roald Dahl:

  1. Made numerous anti-Semitic comments, including stating there were reasons for Hitler's actions against Jews[1][4].

  2. Expressed anti-Israel sentiments and admitted to becoming anti-Semitic[4].

  3. Used racial and sexual stereotypes in his writing[3].

  4. Included racist depictions of Oompa-Loompas as African pygmies in early versions of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory[4].

  5. Incorporated themes of child abuse, neglect, racism, sexual innuendo, and fat-shaming in children's books[4].

  6. Used coarse language and drug references in works intended for children[4].

  7. Originally described Matilda as a "devilish little hussy" before editors intervened[4].

  8. Engaged in long-term adultery, having an affair with a friend of his wife[1].

  9. Displayed a mean and unpleasant personality, earning the nickname "Roald the Rotten"[1].

  10. Expressed chauvinistic attitudes, frequently portraying women negatively in his stories[1][3].

  11. Showed a lack of remorse for his controversial statements and views[1][4].

Citations: [1] The dark side of Roald Dahl - BBC https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20160912-the-dark-side-of-roald-dahl [2] The hundreds of changes made to Roald Dahl's books to suit a new ... https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1154tr5/the_hundreds_of_changes_made_to_roald_dahls_books/ [3] Roald Dahl revision controversy - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roald_Dahl_revision_controversy [4] What's the Deal With… Roald Dahl? - Becandbooks https://becandbooks.com/whats-the-deal-with-roald-dahl/ [5] After family apology, 5 antisemitic Roald Dahl quotes - The Forward https://forward.com/fast-forward/349771/roald-dahls-family-has-apologized-for-his-jew-hatred-what-were-the-5-worst/

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago

Now that I am fully informed, I have decided to continue being a huge fan of his work. Of the authors of delightful stories that I have enjoyed in my life, this is probably not even top 20 assholery.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›