this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2022
0 points (50.0% liked)

Communism

9663 readers
1 users here now

Discussion Community for fellow Marxist-Leninists and other Marxists.

Rules for /c/communism

Rules that visitors must follow to participate. May be used as reasons to report or ban.

  1. No non-marxists

This subreddit is here to facilitate discussion between marxists.

There are other communities aimed at helping along new communists. This community isn't here to convert naysayers to marxism.

If you are a member of the police, armed forces, or any other part of the repressive state apparatus of capitalist nations, you will be banned.

  1. No oppressive language

Do not attempt to justify your use of oppressive language.

Doing this will almost assuredly result in a ban. Accept the criticism in a principled manner, edit your post or comment accordingly, and move on, learning from your mistake.

We believe that speech, like everything else, has a class character, and that some speech can be oppressive. This is why speech that is patriarchal, white supremacist, cissupremacist, homophobic, ableist, or otherwise oppressive is banned.

TERF is not a slur.

  1. No low quality or off-topic posts

Posts that are low-effort or otherwise irrelevant will be removed.

This is not a place to engage in meta-drama or discuss random reactionaries on lemmy or anywhere else.

This includes memes and circlejerking.

This includes most images, such as random books or memorabilia you found.

We ask that amerikan posters refrain from posting about US bourgeois politics. The rest of the world really doesn’t care that much.

  1. No basic questions about marxism

Posts asking entry-level questions will be removed.

Questions like “What is Maoism?” or “Why do Stalinists believe what they do?” will be removed, as they are not the focus on this forum.

  1. No sectarianism

Marxists of all tendencies are welcome here.

Refrain from sectarianism, defined here as unprincipled criticism. Posts trash-talking a certain tendency or marxist figure will be removed. Circlejerking, throwing insults around, and other pettiness is unacceptable.

If criticisms must be made, make them in a principled manner, applying Marxist analysis.

The goal of this subreddit is the accretion of theory and knowledge and the promotion of quality discussion and criticism.

Check out ProleWiki for a communist wikipedia.

Communism study guide

bottombanner

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

The Lemmygrad mod team has deliberated and decided that "patsocs", especially those claiming the title such as Maupin, Hinckle, and Infrared, are hereby banned and are not welcome on lemmygrad.

This ban does not include those who feel some level of "patriotism" (for lack of a better word) for non-settler states ( namely those who have historically been victims of colonialism ).

Discussions surrounding the topics of settler-colonialism, and decolonization will always be allowed, as long as they don't veer into the territory of defenses of colonialism, or affinity with colonizer over the colonized.

This includes:

  • No apologia of settler-colonialism, or defenses of colonizer over the colonized. IE no defenses of Israelis over Palestinians, or European Settlers over indigenous americans fighting for the return of stolen lands.
  • Please adhere to the Marxist-Leninist principle of Right of Nations to Self-Determination: especially holding true for indigeous peoples.
  • Please adhere to the Marxist-Leninist principle of Proletarian Internationalism.
  • No social-chauvinism, or opportunistic appeals to "conservative values" to win converts to socialism.

Here are some Marxist books / resources to learn more about Settler-Colonialism ( Audiobook torrents are linked as well )

top 23 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The CIA is probably going to use patsocs to infiltrate marxist groups and distract the public.

Marxist parties in the U.S should hopefully start banning them soon.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Why in particular would the CIA use patsocs specifically?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

By turning socialism into a "conservative-friendly" movement, they defang it and take away its revolutionary potential, and easily steer it to social chauvinist directions. There's a long history of them doing this with labor movements, and this happened in almost every country going back to Lenin's day.

This is why most of Marxism's greatest works are polemics against social chauvinists / reactionary "socialists" ( state and rev, the renegade kautsky, reform or revolution, critique of the gotha programme ).

Reread the post text above.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

As soon as I learned the most basic beginnings of the Labor Aristocracy, a year or so ago, I competely dropped any semblance of patriotism dwelling inside of me. It made me think, why should our proletariat of the first world take priority over the third world’s exploitation which in most cases is more exploitative, more dangerous, and grants less individual and mass freedoms. And obviously the first world proletariat works hard and they absolutely must be freed, but not at the expense of the third world. Sweden is a decent example. They (not for covid) care about wages and benefits and good stuff like that, but ask them about helping Africa or something and you’ll hear nothing. USA is a great example of the unequal order of labor. The Oil Workers benefit from putting pipelines through indigenous lands. It’s cheapest to put the pipeline on a straight path, in some cases right thru indigenous land, thus needing less construction to reroute and profit is higher. Let’s say that the oil company(humor me for a sec) increases wages because of the massive profits. What we see is the indigenous community being subjugated and tosses to the side for the benefit of the 1st world proletariat. PatSoc can come off as correct when talking about wanting higher wages and better representation, but it’s like the Sex Trade in the fact that when you, the proletarian, have your interests lined up with that of your industry(the petrol industry for “protection of jobs against Climate initiatives” or pimps and johns for “legalization/legitimacy of sex work”) you will be tricked into supporting policies that do not help you but your boss or customers.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Unless you're a Patsoc as in Socialism with Patrick Star characteristics. Then you're a valued member of this forum.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Obsessed with this image

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

LG admin here to say patriotism for countries like Palestine, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. is acceptable as they were colonized by invaders and "patriotism" for those countries is solidarity with indigenous and local populations and their ways of life, however patriotism for countries like the US, the UK, most of Europe, etc. is not and can not be acceptable, because to be "patriotic" for them you must accept the rape, murder, and theft of the indigenous populations they invaded.

Until the US comes under a red banner, American Patriotism will only stand as an acceptance of the manifest destiny pillaging of Natives, the Jim Crow laws that still in certain ways exist today, the recent overturning of Abortion, etc. Marxism and patriotism for the US are like oil and water, and those who try to mix the two have no business here.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

This ban does not include those who feel some level of “patriotism” (for lack of a better word) for non-settler states ( namely those who have historically been victims of colonialism ).

How about past or future proletarian states?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Future proletarian states? How does one talk about the future?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago

By idealist prophecies and unexplained slogans of course /s

Seriously, for example by a political program of an communist party. Or a speculation for one.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Past socialist state as in USSR or PRL or DDR for example. Future, as in the ones for which establishment socialists are fighting, names and scope are probably yet to be decided.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Of course not, we support the USSR and DDR here, neither were settler-colonialist states. The USSR and peoples in eastern europe were the victim of european colonialism in the form of nazism.

The nazis really wanted to emulate what the US settler project acheived, and they were explicit about that, and do to eastern europe what the US did to turtle island.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

On a side note, can i block single thread or single community on lemmy so to not see it?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

How? I just see block user button?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

In your profile settings you can add a community to a blocklist

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago

Indeed, thanks.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Consider this a 4th of July present for any patsocs wanting to infiltrate Lemmygrad.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The wildest take from them was Zionist defense. I never knew, they believe things as silly as the Israeli working class is brainwashed into wanting free houses, they don't really want them.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Where are y'all running into these people? I see people who have opened discussion on how to possibly use existing American patriotism as a radicalization tool (I'm against it, but still understand why there are those that see some value in the idea). But I'm fortunate enough not to have run into any of these specifically terrible takes yet. Seriously, who the f are these "socialists" that support Israel?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago

I know that I am replying to a 2 year old comment but I think that these patsoc types have made more significant moves into spaces outside of their cultish beginnings (i.e., not being from the USA, "MAGA communism" only became apparent to me recently and I joined Lemmygrad because I was so frustrated with seeing "communist" channels on Telegram, for example, allowing this kind of shit and seeing one supposedly "ML" party from the UK (which as an aside I believe to be run by spooks) embrace the "ideology" and to essentially jump on the bandwagon in a truly grotesque, opportunistic move in a desire to be relevant and perhaps gain some new members. I can't see any other justification for their actions. They make the excuse that the "MAGA" movement contains proletarian elements, which is true, but this is territory similar to suggesting that the "national socialists" contained proletarian elements, or the Union of Fascists of Britain and we saw how that played out. I reminded them that Stalin saw the "national socialists" for what they were before WW2 started, as did most communists I am sure, and also that one of the most significant moments in the history of the proletariat in 20th century England was the Battle of Cable Street, in which antifascists and ordinary members of the public came together to beat the shit out of Oswald Mosley's thugs. Antifascism has been a longstanding current in Britain generally, and to see what is essentially a fascist movement being supported by "Marxist-Leninists" is a disgrace and should not be allowed.

But my main point is that they seemed to have spread. I was fooled into entering spaces before I realised that these movements were so significant. I have seen people discuss them as terminally online but the attempted "synthesis" (again, grotesque: apologies to Marx, Lenin and of course Hegel) of the Cult of Maga with "communism" is a potential danger which cannot be slept on. MAGA fascists were highly visible and helped to bring fascists out of the woodworks. It could well be that the "MAGA communists" do the same.

It seems to me that the whole thing is a psyop designed to discredit communist theory and "communists", given the significant emergence of proletarians in the USA discovering Marxist/Marxist-Leninist theory over the last ten years or so. But I do believe that it has the potential to become a more significant threat to being a mere online cult of wackos that are likely being manipulated by some kind of COINTELPRO style psyop into accepting distorted ideas about communism.

It should be noted that I haven't seen these people defend Israel but they do focus much energy on the proxy war in Ukraine and this was in part why I started to pay attention to some of the articles they put out, coming from places like The Grayzone, but they hardly seem to talk about Palestine at all, which is of course an international emergency requiring the attention of communists around the world as I write this. Also, my only exposure to this is via channels which proclaim to be "communist" but are indeed "patsocs" and who, in these channels, "defend" and promote "MAGA communism", as I said, to the point that a self-proclaimed "Marxist-Leninist" party in my country jumping on this bandwagon (they are a very small party and are highly reactionary, especially on issues such as trans issues, but they claim to uphold an anti-revisionist line, yet are apparently funded by the state apparatus and I hear this from an old comrade who is approaching 90 and has heard and seen it all before. This party split from the original ML party of the Comintern due to revisionism in the main body of the party, which does have serious problems in itself. Anyway I am rambling).

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 years ago

This was a critically important move as the PatSocs here were using our communities to platform some of the most insidious rhetoric I've seen in a long time. I have no doubt that the recent surge in Patriotic Socialism is connected with Western propaganda bodies. It's particularly telling that not only were they present arguments that would lead to the US becoming another "National Socialist"/openly fascist state, but that they were also heavily invested in the idea that Europeans were allowed to be Pat Socs because they weren't on Turtle Island.

The fact that this also was coming to head just as the US is seeing Proud Boys activity increasing is also one of those "coincidences don't exist" feelings.