this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2024
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No Stupid Questions

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And I'm being serious. I feel like there might be an argument there, I just don't understand it. Can someone please "steelman" that argument for me?

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago)

Late but here’s my model of the situation. Sort of a WIP and very new but a /gen effortpost, so I welcome thoughts:

It’s individualism versus collectivism. The collectivist understands intimately the function of working together for the protection and future of the group. There is no doubt in her mind about the practical nature of her actions because she can see them play out in her community. The individualist, by contrast, operates solo; everything for him is about your vote, your candidate. This leads to a divide between the individualist and the material outcomes of his actions. This gap—this absence of practicality, we might call it—leaves a vacuum where symbolism can enter. This becomes a problem not when symbolism is simply encountered by the individualist, but when the symbol becomes the act, when the vote becomes a kind of personal expression, and any thought for collective consequences falls by the wayside.

“Ordinarily,” if we imagine such a thing exists, these two identities intermix and act in a complex and altogether non-problematic way; I don’t wish to imply that individualism is simply “bad” while collective action is “good.” For example, concepts of individualism are fundamental to advancing human rights to consent and bodily autonomy.

However, the setting and background of your question is the USA, a country with deep, deep historical ties to white supremacist, capitalist, colonialist, even fascist values, all of which hold the individual as intrinsic over the collective. The result is that hyperindividualism is catastrophically rooted in the heart of U.S. society—even in progressive and leftist spaces!

So, when you see a pro-Palestinian proclaim abstention or that they voted third party, you are witnessing the complex outcome of genuine compassion intermingled with the values instilled by white supremacy and individualism. And so you hear the phrase, “I just can’t in good conscience vote for XYZ.” To degrees varying between people, the vote loses its material value and becomes nothing more than a symbolic moral statement.

This doesn’t mean the leftist non-voter is a white supremacist, of course! Rather, it’s that they have been deeply affected by the presence of those values in their cultural context and have not yet had the opportunity or experience with group frameworks to question their assumptions and reassert the significant importance of collectivism.

So, in conclusion, the unnuanced TLDR is “because America is a racist capitalist hellhole.” The good news I conclude from this, though, is that collectivism can be learned and promoted. Cultural values are definitely not static, and perhaps with education, support, and time, mindsets among leftists can be shifted to better support the whole of the community.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 19 hours ago
[–] [email protected] 9 points 20 hours ago

when you are laser focused on a single thing, anything else just slides past you. making life changing decisions with limited information is a uniquely american trait

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 day ago (7 children)

Because if it wasn't Gaza, it would have been another excuse to not lift a lazy goddamned finger and still delude themselves into feeling "morally superior"while sitting on their fat mediocre asses at home.

Before Harris, they also leaned heavily on the "Sleepy Joe" bullshit and "two old white men up for election, who cares". Once the old "Sleepy Joe" element was removed from the equation, they had to find a way to keep their goddamned stubbornly lazy and ignorant narrative intact.

Now that the election is over, most of these "concerned and outraged" deadweight assholes will never think about Gaza and the plight of its' people again. And they will keep on feeling smug about themselves.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 17 hours ago

I said the same thing about people like you before the election, and I'll repeat it again. The laser focus on single issue voters was and will always be mostly an excuse to blame someone else.

To look at it another way, if this one issue actually decided the election, why didn't Harris change her strategy two months ago? ... Maybe it's because this wasn't the determining issue. Or it was, and her staff was incompetent. Take your pick.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

I know one of those people. they are now angry the left lost... 🙄

[–] [email protected] 4 points 18 hours ago

OP asked for a steelman but good try

[–] [email protected] 5 points 20 hours ago

It is rich to criticize the Democrats for claiming moral superiority while doing nothing, as a justification for not voting for the candidate who would at least try to put a leash on what Israel is doing to Gaza.

If you want what's best for a suffering people, you should vote for the candidate not trying to give their oppressors a blank check. All of America is responsible for what the president we chose does next.

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 day ago (5 children)

It's the trolley problem. You see a trolley about to kill 5 people. You can pull a lever (vote) and make the trolley only kill 1. In this case, that 1 person is also in the lineup of 5. This distinction makes it obvious the only option is to pull the lever (vote).

[–] [email protected] 19 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

They mistakenly believe that by pulling the lever they are complicit in the trolley. That by interacting with the trolley on the trolley's terms, they are consenting to the trolley's actions.

I used to believe that too once... Once.

I was disabused of that notion before 2012, but sadly not enough people were.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 21 hours ago

Inaction is also an action. You're always playing the game, might as well learn the rules.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 12 hours ago

I agree that people should've voted, but I disagree with this one-dimensional line of thinking. I can see the argument that by voting for the democrats their current behaviour and this fucked up system as a whole is warranted. It's not as simple as "why not vote, it costs you nothing". By voting this horrible "democracy" is legitimised and the democrats and the system will not change their approach. The US deserves a democracy that actually allows for representation instead of this duopoly of garbage and more garbage

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 day ago (5 children)

The arguments against voting in the USA sound similar to the trolley problem

Some people wouldnt choose to be the reason of the death of one person even if doing nothing causes the death of multiple people

[–] [email protected] 6 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

This is very american - these Gaza supporters protest the suffering of people thousands of miles away and yet think it is okay to bring suffering to everyone in his/her own street

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 day ago

That just means you value your own ability to evade blame over the lives of real people.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

Yeah but also they all die anyway. Nobody is "saved" in this situation. In fact, it's way worse now.

What's going to happen in Gaza is going to be horrifying.

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[–] [email protected] -4 points 10 hours ago (8 children)

It's not Gaza. It's that the Dems are a party of the riches. They don't represent the poorer anymore. When you have this political shift, you open the doors of the far right.

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[–] [email protected] 58 points 1 day ago (10 children)

They believe it because that’s what people have been told to believe.

It should be glaringly obvious that trump’s implied policy that he will let Israel “finish the job” is far worse than the dems poor attempts at negotiating cease-fires or any other moderation on Israel’s aggression.

All the propaganda has focused on the democrat (in)action regarding Israel. Zero on trump’s plans.

That’s what the propaganda machine has been pushing.

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