this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2023
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[–] [email protected] 268 points 10 months ago (12 children)

Can we please stop with the browser bloat? This is something that should be a plug-in, not a kitchen sink feature.

[–] [email protected] 280 points 10 months ago (11 children)

I actually don't agree, and the reason is - non tech people. You and me can install plugins but ordinary people don't do that. So the default experience must be good, offering improvements to the experience over Google Chrome.

Otherwise all privacy features could also be plugins. Imagine if that was true. Firefox would have no identity and you would have to install plugins and make it your own.

So some features should be built in. Maybe the ability to get pop-ups about false reviews will actually make users go "wow that is so useful".

[–] [email protected] 210 points 10 months ago (5 children)

Compromise: Develop it as a Plugin and then install it by default. That way people who don't want the feature can easily remove it completely. That approach would likely also reduce the number of Firefox forks whose sole purpose is to remove the new features some consider bloat.

[–] [email protected] 59 points 10 months ago

That's actually what Firefox usually did for these kind of features. They're usually delayed as system add-ons.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

Or make it so that people have a choice to add some of the extension features when installing the browser. Debloating is not fun

[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago (6 children)

Sometimes it feels like debloating is a hobby to people with little to show for it

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[–] [email protected] 66 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Agreed. This is well outside the scope of native browser functions. Firefox already has a rich extensions ecosystem. They can just include the extension with the browser by default for all I care, but as a native feature, this makes no sense.

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[–] [email protected] 198 points 10 months ago (5 children)

I bought an 4.7 rated amplifier on Amazon that broke the first day. Looking at the reviews closer, I noticed they were 100% paid reviewers.

When I tried to leave a negative review, Amazon stopped me, giving a generic message about fake reviews on this product. This product is still out their with a high rating and no way for actual purchasers like me to warn other customers.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 10 months ago (2 children)

That's appalling customer service.

Amazon stopped me, giving a generic message about fake reviews on this product

Can you elaborate? I've never experienced this and would like to understand how they do it.

[–] [email protected] 57 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

I've had this multiple times.

Tried to leave a big detailed helpful negative review and it gets flagged for being suspicious, with no copy of the review attached so I have to write it all again. And then it gets removed again.

I just looked in my emails. The exact phrasing was "We have reviewed our decisions and concluded that the product you received is authentic. As a result, we removed your review specific to this product. This ensures other customers see reviews that reflect the current shopping experience."

Most recently it happened with a body trimmer, where I never questioned the inauthenticity, and then a zojirushi travel mug that I genuinely believe was a fake, and attached a lot of evidence.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago

Give it 2 stars instead of 1.

And never read the 5-star reviews.

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[–] [email protected] 96 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (14 children)

Are fake reviews even a problem worth bothering with? The far bigger problem is that most reviews are just devoid of useful information. "Thing arrived and box looked pretty" is what most of them boil down to. If they are fake or not doesn't make a difference. Even a review that puts effort into itself, is largely useless when the writer didn't have multiple competing products at hand to compare. And on top of that you have the issue that products will frequently change under the hood, so even if the product was good a year ago, there is no guarantee you are getting the same thing when you order it today.

The whole online shopping landscape is a complete mess and fake reviews are really just the tiny tip of the iceberg. To really improve the situation you'd need some "Consumer Reports"-type effort that objectively evaluates a products performance and compares it to the competition. Depending on random people on the Internet to do the reviewing is kind of a lost cause to begin with.

[–] [email protected] 51 points 10 months ago (1 children)

My favourite is someone who rates it 1 star because they got it late.

You're reviewing the item you wet wipe, not Katie who works for Evri/Hermes...

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 10 months ago (3 children)

There is also the question section.

"How big is the item itself"

Some idiot: I don't know. Bought it as a gift

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 10 months ago

Of course they are a problem? The real issue is the star ratings in aggregate of course, but the value in individual reviews is detecting patterns - "didn't like the lock thing" "latch was loose" "maybe it's just me, but the latch didn't feel solid" "the lock broke off within a week". You start to see trouble spots if you know how to skim actual reviews.

So to get that value, you don't restrict input, you leave it open, the "pretty box" people aren't ideal, but it's fine because it allows for the breadcrumbs that tell the larger truth. It's ridiculous to expect normal, busy people to do "consumer reports" style reviews for every small kitchen sponge and packet of stickers sold online?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 10 months ago (2 children)

With Amazon there's also the problem of them combining reviews of entirely different products into a single product's page. I have no idea why they do this. There are also sellers who switch the product on the page while keeping the positive reviews for an earlier product.

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[–] [email protected] 70 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (10 children)

Why would this hurt Amazon? People will just see a different set of reviews. It's manufacturers if crappy knock-off products that should be shaking in their boots.

[–] [email protected] 58 points 10 months ago (2 children)

And unfortunately Firefox is sitting at 2 to 3% so even if Amazon were dependant on fake reviews, they have little to fear due to the low marketshare.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I would assume the whole point of a feature like this is to help them get new users.

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 10 months ago (11 children)

Amazon makes a lot of money facilitating the sales of counterfeit goods.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Agreed. Might actually give more faith in using Amazon.

Hmm their Amazon basics might suffer. I think Amazon basics true offering is cheap but not scam.

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[–] [email protected] 60 points 10 months ago (9 children)

I’m skeptical… how are the fake reviews identified and how do you avoid flagging real ones?

[–] [email protected] 64 points 10 months ago (1 children)

They’re just building Fakespot into the browser so the same way Fakespot does, by analyzing the user who posted the review

[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago (1 children)

What does "analyzing" mean?

[–] [email protected] 80 points 10 months ago (6 children)

They detect when a whole bunch of reviews are posted at exactly the same time, or are posted on a fixed schedule, or use extremely similar language, or with a brand new account...

Basically they use spam-detection techniques on reviews.

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[–] [email protected] 55 points 10 months ago (6 children)

I just want native vertical tabs lmao

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Amazon is in trouble

I don't see why. Fake reviews don't benefit Amazon. The review information is a value-add for them, and fake reviews detract from that.

Hell, if it actually is able to reliably detect fake reviews on Amazon -- which I doubt, but let's roll with it -- Amazon might buy the company that does the fake review detection to get it so that they can filter it.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

I don't agree with the assertion that fake reviews don't benefit them, but I may be missing something. Reviews help drive consumer behavior and more reviews lead to more sales from those who are unable or unwilling to be more discerning. (Amazon takes a cut)

For others, it the idea or presence of fake reviews might drive them to a "trusted" Amazon Basics alternative, also leading to sales with a higher margin for Amazon.

Additionally, recycling listing ASINs is a common tactic that Amazon could stop and is a source of "fake" (or at least, irrelevant in content and misleading in score) reviews. There's minimal enforcement of rules for review integrity, such as verified purchases or quid pro quo "warranties" and "free gifts" for 5 star reviews.

All the evidence I see points to Amazon preferring the status quo.

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[–] [email protected] 46 points 10 months ago (2 children)

This will work for 15 microseconds before people start deploying it as an adversarial training aid.

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[–] [email protected] 42 points 10 months ago (4 children)

The dedicated websites to check amazon reviews like fakespot.com have been almost completely beaten. What is Firefox going to do differently?

[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Per the article, they are integrating Fakespot into Firefox, so it won't be different. Hopefully the tool can be improved

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

So how much do I have to pay to boost the Fakespot rating of my product listing?

[–] [email protected] 32 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I must admit that I do like the built in page translation, which I guess was made by a similar team using ML and all. Maybe I will like this too? Feels a bit... niche. Maybe it's a stepping stone to any misinformation at some point?

Edit This actually might not be coming as a browser feature at all. Mozilla is trying to increase the size of their Mozilla.ai team, so perhaps it's really looking for people with AI knowledge with web tech and a track record of using it for a ethical purpose. This team would be well placed to build pretty much any AI based tool for the firefox ecosystem.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 10 months ago (2 children)

It is very nice to see Mozilla doing quite useful/helpful projects from time to time.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 10 months ago (1 children)

We're switching to Firefox!

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I'm curious to see what Mozilla will do with the shopping assistant portion. Lots of browser extensions, and potentially even some of the Mozilla sponsors offer these types of features, and if Mozilla just stamps them out all at once by integrating that feature, it might lose them some financial support.

On the other hand, I do hope they don't start amassing huge amounts of training data from their uses. It would be a real bummer to not have a decent browser option anymore.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I've already been using the fakespot extension for a few years, and honestly, it feels pretty useless. I've seen it give A and B scores for products that I know have fake reviews. And on Amazon or Walmart and similar sites, we already know that the reviews are bullshit, so what difference does it really make for it to tell me that? It's not like I have any better option in most cases.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Does anyone know the split of Amazon's mobile app versus mobile web and desktop use? This won't have an impact on their proprietary app and that's a shame.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago (8 children)

i've found that firefox on android is one of my favorite apps, even replacing native apps in many cases.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago

firefox hitting homeruns on user-friendliness with actually useful features that protect you online, while all other browser just wanna put more ads in front of your face.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Always sort by 1 star. And if the comments share similar issues. Do not buy.

[–] [email protected] 60 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

No... 2 to 4 star reviews are more realistic. 5 star reviews are either fake or they got lucky and nothing bad happened. 1 star reviews usually are from people that were PISSED OFF while 2 to 4 star reviews are generally from people with more nuanced opinions than "this product cured my cancer" or "this product set fire to my cat and stole my significant other"

[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago (4 children)

And so it begins, the marketing world has got its claws in AI.

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