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submitted 7 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

Well, I’ll be damned. They finally won one it sounds like.

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[-] [email protected] 249 points 7 months ago
[-] [email protected] 90 points 7 months ago

It was ruled previously that Apple don’t have a large enough market share

[-] [email protected] 111 points 7 months ago

But if they force Google to open their app store, I hope that do it for fucking everyone.

At least on Google devices you still can sideload apps, and fairly easy TBH. My biggest annoyance is the "you can't buy stuff in apps without giving us a cut" which fucked up stuff like ebook apps etc

[-] [email protected] 49 points 7 months ago

Yeah, the Kindle app pretty blatantly tells you why they removed in-app purchases.

[-] [email protected] 54 points 7 months ago
[-] [email protected] 43 points 7 months ago

Yes, but US favour companies over people.

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[-] [email protected] 39 points 7 months ago

Yeah but they also have more rights than the consumer, rather than the other way about lol

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[-] [email protected] 25 points 7 months ago

And consoles.

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[-] [email protected] 173 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I don't understand. Android already allows other apps and app stores to be installed, and Epic already has an Android app store you can download and install without issue. What was the argument here?

Edit: tldr: apparently it is not good enough for Epic to have their own app store, they want to have their app in Google's app store and still not pay them money for purchases made in the app.

Google paid off other OEMs to make Google Play the default app store (much like they paid off other companies to be the default search engine) which the court decided was anticompetitive.

[-] [email protected] 128 points 7 months ago

I believe that Google wanted in-app purchases in Fortnite to go through Play Store so that Google would get 30%. And Epic wanted to setup their own in-app billing and keep it all.

[-] [email protected] 65 points 7 months ago

I wonder how that's going to play out with Apple and their monopoly.

[-] [email protected] 84 points 7 months ago

A lot of this case hinged on the fact that Google wasn’t treating everyone the same. They had a lot of private details for big companies.

Unless Apple also has secret deals, then this isn’t going to impact them.

[-] [email protected] 80 points 7 months ago

Unless Apple also has secret deals

Apple doesn't need to make any deals at all because you simply can't install any other app stores, or any apps outside of the Apple app store.

That's the crazy thing, that they lost their case and Apple won, despite Apple having WAY more control.

[-] [email protected] 34 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Apple wouldn't need to have secret deals. They're running a walled garden over there. You can't side load, and you can't run payments through the app without Apple's approval. That case was about Apple forcing developers not to even talk in the app about the possibility of making a purchase elsewhere, like through their websites. It wasn't a deal, it was Apple strong-arming a developer because they could.

The problem is Google wanted to have what Apple has: a closed ecosystem they can exploit. But they don't have that, at least not to the same degree. Android is not "theirs", even if they've increasingly managed to make the Play Store more inseparable as time has gone by, and getting worse about that all the time.

The most they can do is scare people away from using third party app stores or doing anything with Android they don't approve of, and when it comes to things like Play Integrity and Play Protection, they can punish you for stepping outside their bounds by breaking certain functionality (for having the audacity to want to control your own device).

But they can't outright control anything.

Which is where the deals come in. They're making shady deals to keep Android as their money maker and no one elses.

It's anti-competitive, because to spite Google's efforts, there is an actual opportunity for competition on Android, where as on iPhone, there isn't.

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[-] [email protected] 38 points 7 months ago

But Epic v. Google turned out to be a very different case. It hinged on secret revenue sharing deals between Google, smartphone makers, and big game developers, ones that Google execs internally believed were designed to keep rival app stores down. It showed that Google was running scared of Epic specifically. And it was all decided by a jury, unlike the Apple ruling.

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[-] [email protected] 28 points 7 months ago

On top of what Aatube says about secret unfair deals, Google's Play Store is necessary to run essential social services. In my case I need it to download my banking app and to sign into my university's online studies.

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[-] [email protected] 137 points 7 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Didn't Epic lose the fight against Apple? How is Google more of a monopoly than Apple? It is incredibly easy to sideload apps on Android compared to iPhones, and there are multiple dedicated unofficial stores. These verdicts are not coherent at all between them. I understand they are two separate judges, but the law should be the same for all, not at the interpretation of whichever judge you get.

Edit: for future reference, Verge answers this very question here https://www.theverge.com/24003500/epic-v-google-loss-apple-win-fortnite-trial-monopoly

[-] [email protected] 98 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

EDIT: Added source from where I read it.

~~From some other comment I read,~~ it apparently was due to google paying companies to set Google's stuff as their default. Something Apple does not (have to) do.

This comment by AnalogyBreaker on the article seems to explain it pretty well:

The "this doesn't make sense" crowd are missing the point. Android is open source, anyone can use it. Google licensed it that way to spur adoption and (in theory) not solely be responsible for its development. They could make their own closed OS, kept it exclusive to Pixel phones and have a closed app store... but we can can all guess how well that would have went... not well. So the open source route makes sense.

Because Android is freely licensed to anyone, there is a market for apps that Google theoretically doesn't control and resides on non-google produced devices. They do control Play Services, however. That's not open source and includes proprietary apps basically essential for an operating smart phone such as Google sign in, Maps, and of course the Play Store. Google used their market dominance in those fields to prevent third parties from launching or installing competitors to the Play Store by denying Play Services to those who didn't comply; paying them off directly or brokering sweetheart deals. That's appears like an obvious abuse of their market position.

If Google wanted to be treated the same as Apple, they'd have to develop phones the same way as Apple. They didn't do that, instead they rely on third parties and those third parties have protections from Google abusing their monopoly position against them. To suggest they should be treated the same as Apple is akin to wanting to have your cake and eat it too. For the record, I'm not a fan of the Apple ruling, but there are clear differences between the two cases and seeing different outcomes shouldn't be a surprise.

Source

There was another comparison I read using an example if Microsoft paid stores to not sell PlayStations, but I can't find it anymore.

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[-] [email protected] 28 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Yeah, it seems Google is way more open to side loading and fdroid existing. Not sure how Apple got away with it when they are so much more restrictive.

Can this ruling be used in the future against Apple?

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[-] [email protected] 91 points 7 months ago

ITT: lots of people wondering why Apple won and Google lost, but not reading the article, which explains the difference of the cases.

[-] [email protected] 78 points 7 months ago

ITC: Someone not understanding the difference between not understanding and not agreeing.

[-] [email protected] 62 points 7 months ago

Yeah, fuck that. I definitely don't agree with the ruling. iOS is far more restrictive than Android, because at least Android provides the ability to easily install alternatives (F-droid app store is an awesome alternative for many types of apps and it's all free). Sure, Android dominates the market globally, but in the US--nd many other countries-- Apple has the majority of marketshare. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ios-vs-android-market-share-135251641.html

It's just bullshit to me that Apple gets a free pass for clearly being anti-competitive. I'm glad this trial struck down Google's app store monopoly, but all phone OS's should be forbidden from doing it.

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[-] [email protected] 63 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

No it doesn't, it just says that the case was different and that it wasn't in front of a jury, it doesn't give the details of the difference. You have to go read the entire article from a few years ago

[-] [email protected] 89 points 7 months ago

About the only benefit I can personally see from this is the ability to fully integrate F-Droid as an app store in my device, with proper automatic background updates, and without requiring root solutions that void my work's security measures for mobile devices. On the other hand, I can see Huawei, Amazon, and Epic jumping to the fray with their own app stores and system services, and maybe Google Play being far more lenient with subscription services like Spotify's in their own App Store. Altogether, I personally loathe Epic's approach, but appreciate the consequences of their lawsuit.

[-] [email protected] 34 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Increased competition is ALWAYS better for the customer.

You're forgetting AppBrain from like 15 years ago.

I agree on the concerns, but it's a virtually universal truth, so long as they're actually forced to treat other app stores fairly. We might end up with a true third party stepping in to claim the throne, at least until the mega-corps reverse all the optimization they've created for their own benefits (even things like searches for apps are not fully intended to benefit the user right now, things most people don't really realize).

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[-] [email protected] 85 points 7 months ago

So odd that the open source platform that allows sideloading and doesn't even come with an app store by default is the one that is a monopoly but the locked down one with total control over your device is not.

Some Android flavors even come with other app stores. Samsung phones have their own Samsung app store that even includes Fortnite.

[-] [email protected] 35 points 7 months ago

problem here was that Google was doing deals to undermine those things

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[-] [email protected] 66 points 7 months ago

This is so wild. Google allows side loading and 3rd party app stores…and that is the reason they were found guilty.

Unlike Apple, Google allows people to download apps onto phones running its Android operating system without going through its official app store, but the company strikes deals with phone manufacturers to favor Google’s official app store.

So because they strike deals to favor their store, even though they allow 3rd party stores to begin with, they’ve violated the SAA.

Meanwhile, Apple who refuses to allow competition or 3rd party app stores is sitting pretty because…well, they haven’t “favored” their own store over rival stores. BECAUSE RIVAL STORES CANT EXIST. I don’t know how you could favor your store any harder than that??

The legal shenanigans around all of this are frustrating to watch as a lay person.

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[-] [email protected] 55 points 7 months ago

Fuck Epic, but this is a good decision for everyone.

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[-] [email protected] 49 points 7 months ago

Huh?? They won this one but not the Apple one??

[-] [email protected] 68 points 7 months ago

Different case. This hung on the anti-competitive nature of Google’s backroom deals with big players. That’s what fucked Google. Different rules for different developers.

[-] [email protected] 40 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Apple: this is our system and we've always been upfront about it. We're dictators of our ecosystem. You can't compel us to open up. Yes there's less customer choice, but we have a right to say how our own system is run, and we've always made that clear to everybody. Forcing us to open up our system is like forcing Nintendo to allow Microsoft games on the Switch, bypassing paying Nintendo anything.

The courts say fair enough, that's correct.

Google: we claim to have an open ecosystem, but actually we don't. We're using our market position to impose terms on phone makers, if they're big like Samsung we might give them permission to have their own app store, with certain concessions. We have backroom deals not to take revenue from some large companies, but to take it from others. We have power over OEMs and we use it to further consolidate our monopoly. They will agree to our terms because they have no other choice than to comply.

The courts say whoa that seems like an abuse of your dominant market position.

You're looking at it from the perspective of user choice. That's not what the courts care about, they care about the law. The Google case was always more likely to be a win for Epic, despite Reddit and Lemmy not realising it.

[-] [email protected] 27 points 7 months ago

But Epic v. Google turned out to be a very different case. It hinged on secret revenue sharing deals between Google, smartphone makers, and big game developers, ones that Google execs internally believed were designed to keep rival app stores down. It showed that Google was running scared of Epic specifically. And it was all decided by a jury, unlike the Apple ruling.

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[-] [email protected] 41 points 7 months ago

Finally a big W. Google backdoored Android with Google Play Services and gives itself special permissions that no other app can do. They should be under the same limitations that other apps are reserved to. That's why projects like Sandboxed Google play is really awesome.

[-] [email protected] 36 points 7 months ago

I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the EU lawsuits, right?

Both Google and Apple would still have to open up soon (at least in EU)

Sorry if it's a stupid question.

[-] [email protected] 27 points 7 months ago

It's something else. Here it's US antitrust monopoly.

Google made deals with games and special contracts with other apps in order to kill competition.

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[-] [email protected] 36 points 7 months ago

While I understand the concern over the single appstore monopoly that we have on any device, I think it's worth remembering what ecosystem android and IOS came into.

The old multimedia phones that were sold in the mid 00s were effectively "smart". Many of them ran java and you could install programs, and freely install ringtones, and browsers that actually worked like opera mini/mobile. The thing is you couldnt by default. At least not in the US. The devices were locked down and everything you did went through the carrier's store. And US telecom services are some of the greediest and scummiest companies out there so you couldnt even use your own mp3 files as a ringtone.

Apple combated this with their closed off ecosystem, but android did face issues with fragmentation in the early days and needed a way to prevent the telecoms branded phones from stinking up the ecosystem. They did this by leveraging the play services and play store. From the playstore they can also since mainline release various peacemeal updates which helps resolve their other issue with fragmentation and thats android device being abandoned.

Sure enough you can still release your own version of android without it, amazon's tablets and tv sticks do pretty well.

That said I do think it's a good to help people move past the default and open up the platforms more, I just wish it would apply to all smart devices,

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[-] [email protected] 32 points 7 months ago

I run e/OS, I don't have google app store or any of the related service software installed. Yet I am able to use a cleaned up version of android and still have access to the google app store through an anonymous account using the in built app.

Epic won this case against google...

Epic lost the same case against apple, with which none of the above would be possible.

I'm not advocating for google, obviously I avoid them. But that's BS, I hope this is used as precedent to bring a new case against apple.

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[-] [email protected] 29 points 7 months ago

So now Google will be forced to... allow third party app stores? Like F-Droid or Amazon and I think Yandex has a big one as well. If Epic aren't suing for damages I don't really see what the goal could be. Another win for all the lawyers I guess.

[-] [email protected] 29 points 7 months ago

I imagine Epic doesn't really care about that so much as not giving Google 30% of in-game purchases in Fortnite.

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this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
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