this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2023
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Fediverse

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A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).

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My Problems with Mastodon

Even with growing pains accommodating an influx of new users, Lemmy has made it clear that a federated social media site can be nearly as good as the original thing. I joined Lemmy, and it exceeded my expectations for a Reddit alternative run by an independent team.

These expectations were originally pretty low when Mastodon, the popular federated Twitter alternative, was the only federated social media I had experience with. After using Lemmy, Mastodon seems to be missing basic features. I initially believed these were just shortcomings of federated social media.

  1. Likes aren't counted by users outside your instance, and replies don't seem to be counted at all (beyond 0, 1, 1+), leading to posts that look like they have way more boosts (retweets) than likes or replies:

    This incentivizes people to just gravitate toward the biggest instance more than people already do. My guess is that self-hosting a mastodon instance would also not be ideal, since the only likes you'll see are your own.

  2. There's really only one effective ways to find popular or 'trending' posts. There's the explore tab which has 'posts', and 'tags' sections.

    The 'posts' section shows some trending posts across your instance and all the instances that it's federated with, this is the one I use it the most.

    The 'tags' section is a lot like the trending tab on Twitter, but it's reserved just for hashtags, which I guess isn't a huge deal, but it feels like a downgrade. However, I do like the trend line it shows next to each tag!

    The 'Local' and 'Federated' tabs are a live feed of post from your home instance and all the other instances, respectively. I feel these are pretty useless and definitely don't warrant their own tabs. Having a local trending tab for seeing popular posts on your instance would be more interesting.

  3. The search bar basically doesn't work, is this just me???

  4. This one is more minor and more specific to a Twitter alternative, but when looking at a user's follows, you'll only see the one's on your home instance but for some reason this rule doesn't apply to followers.

From what I've heard, a lot of these issues are intentional in order to create a healthier social media experience. Things like less focus on likes, reduces a hivemind mentality, addiction, things like that (I couldn't find a source for this, if anyone has one confirming or disproving this please lmk).

Why this is a Problem

Mastodon seems to have two goals: To be an example of how a federated alternative to Twitter can work well, and to be a healthier social media experience. It's not obvious, but I think these goals conflict with each other. A lot of the features that are removed in the pursuit of a healthier social media will be perceived as the shortcomings of federation as a concept.

In my eyes, Mastodon's one main goal should be proving federated social media as a whole to the public, by being a seamless, familiar, full-featured alternative to Twitter. For me, Lemmy has done that for Reddit, upvotes are counted normally, you can see trending posts locally and globally same with communities, and the search function works! All its shortcomings aren't design flaws, and I fully expect them to be fixed down the road as it matures.

As annoying as Jack Dorsey is, I have high hopes for BlueSky.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Calckey/Firefish (forked from the Japanese software Misskey, so I assume that one is similar) is basically Mastodon but cool. It fixes many of your problems. While it's not yet perfect (same issue with followers from other servers), there seems to be more going on.

As annoying as Jack Dorsey is, I have high hopes for BlueSky.

As long as he doesn't submit that protocol as ActivityPub 2.0 or whatever, it's not compatible with the wider fediverse, so not interesting.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'd be surprised if he did submit it as activitypub, he's already called it ATProtocol

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

He cannot just call something the name of an industry standard but he can submit his to the W3C who then can decide whether to adopt it or not

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Mastodon doesn't have Likes at all.

The star you're referring to is Favorite. Those go into your Favorite list. So you can refer back to them more easily.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Oh god, Ive been using them wrong this whole time?!?!

I guess I am so used to other social media I had assumed it was a like button.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

[This comment has been deleted by an automated system]

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Although they differ from Twitter Likes, note that Mastodon Favorites are not private. For an example, I'll refer to one of your toots:
https://mastodon.social/@justhach/110696151311920356

Viewing it in the Mastodon web interface, I see an indication that 2 people marked it as a Favorite. I can then click to see those 2 usernames, listed here:
https://mastodon.social/@justhach/110696151311920356/favourites

Such listings are limited though. For example, I'm viewing a toot that you boosted, and I see an indication that it has been marked as a Favorite by 816 users; but when I click to view their names, I see only 40 of them listed.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I don't see it that way. There are separate options to Favourite or Bookmark a post. To me Bookmarking something is so you can refer to it later, although nothing is stopping you using Favourites that way.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

I can see why others might find those features useful, but I am not bothered by any of it. To me, Twitter was a (micro) blogging site, so I treated it as such. I found organizations/creators that I wanted to follow and read my feed in chronological order.

I don't care about likes and retweets, because every tweet in my feed was coming from a source I wanted to hear from. Reply count did matter, but mostly to know that there were responses.

I never cared what was trending because it was never something I cared about.

I only used search to find specific users (though it is easy enough to find them by Googling or looking for a link on that user’s website) and,.on very rare occasions, I would search for my city or neighborhood name to see if there was a cause to be commotion I was seeing

I never cared who other users followed or were followed by. Even looking at my own followers was an exercise in who stroking.


My biggest complaint about Mastodon is that none of the users I would want to follow are on it yet. It is not a big enough issue to keep me on Twitter but there is no reason for me to join Mastodon either (as a lurker and occasional replyer).

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Oh, so that explains why the ratio of favorites/boosts is so low on mastodon. I thought it was just a culture thing, where people rarely left likes on posts.

Turns out it was just a software quirk.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (11 children)

So users viewing this post on another instance will see the same exact comments and upvotes?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Hi from lemm.ee👋

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's the idea, but in practice since the data exists independently on each server, it takes network time and computational time for them to align. In practice I expect comments to function as you expect, and upvotes to be slightly off depending on which instance you're viewing from.

Things get a bit more weird when an instance gets defederated from another instance. My understanding here is that if you have instance A defederate from instance B, but instance B was listening to some of instance A's communities, that instance B will have an independent replica of that community that doesn't sync (this happened when beehaw defederated from open registration instances like lemmy.world).

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Indeed, at least that's the idea. Viewing and posting from kbin.social.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

It's aboot time something worked so well innit?

-lemmy.ca

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

My understanding is yes, but only if the instances have federated with each other.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

I think you have to factor in the ideological motivation here. Many have tried to criticise the team for being socialists or weaponise it as a means of trying to get Lemmy not to take off, but I argue that it is because Lemmy is run by ideologically committed people that it exceeded your expectations.

Lemmy's goal is disrupting corporate control of what used to be communal spaces online. This is ideologically motivated by the socialist beliefs held by its development team.

Whether you agree with socialists or not politically, for a platform like Lemmy this motivation is very very powerful and plays a significant part.

The other side of this is that having known and occupied socialist spaces with Dessalines for close to a decade now he is one of the hardest working socialists online.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)
  1. This isn't just a Mastodon problem, all fediverse softwares struggle to keep an accurate tally of faves/likes/whatevers on posts from remote instances

  2. It doesn't look like this anymore on mastodon.social

  3. Search isn't free so it's up to the admins to decide how good/powerful they want their search bar to be.

  4. It shows all followees/followers of a user if said user is local, but if the user is remote, it will only show local followees/followers of that user because knowing what remote accounts follow what remote users also isn't free.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I think fundamentally Mastodon can't work. The entire point of Twitter is for celebrities, brands and governments to have a single place to be able to send out a public message and for that message to be seen by everyone, especially those who opt in to it by following. Decentralized alternatives by definition can't do that. Centralization is the entire point of Twitter.

Decentralization does work for Reddit/Lemmy though, because they are content centric, not person centric. I don't care who posts content to the subreddits I follow, just that the content exists, can be easily viewed (RIP third party Reddit apps, hello Lemmy!), and is interesting. Lemmy doesn't need hundreds of millions of people in a single place to create enough content that is interesting, and in fact having fewer people makes the content that is posted more interesting and focused. Lemmy's decentralization is a strength because if this instance doesn't have the interesting content I want, I can just go elsewhere.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago

The entire point of Twitter is for celebrities, brands and governments to have a single place to be able to send out a public message and for that message to be seen by everyone

Nothing about Mastodon or the fediverse prevents this. In fact government institutions are already using the fediverse this way: https://social.network.europa.eu/@EU_Commission https://social.overheid.nl/@belastingdienst There's some companies who run their own instances also, and no shortage of individuals running single-user instances as a subdomain of the same website they use for their professional brand.

Decentralized =/= Federated. In a federated model, data is still siloed in 24/7 servers that are controlled by people or institutions.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

Hear hear! I thought I didn't like the fediverse because Mastodon did such an awful job selling it to me. "Oh, I can't view other instances' local timelines without making accounts on them? What's even the point of federation then?" But on Lemmy you can easily browse communities outside your own instance. So it's not the fediverse's fault, Mastodon just doesn't have a clear audience.

And yeah, I can see how a lot of Mastodon's features are "privacy-focused", but I think it does TOO good a job, it's so private that you can't find anything!

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think this is very much a YMMV situation. I moved from twitter to mastodon and brands aside, all of the interesting people I followed are here. granted, I follow a very developer centric crowd so it might be a bit self-selecting. I am enjoying Mastodon way more than twitter and I get more engagement on average.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm having a similar experience. Almost all developers (mostly Python/Django) I was following on Twitter are on Mastodon and being able to follow hashtags is great. The servers are stable and I kept the very first android client I tried (Tusky).

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I've been on and off mastodon since 2019 and I've really wanted to like it, however the lack of a usable search kills it for me. I guess when your the main dev and you have half of mastodon following you a usable search isn't really necessary. Someone did try to work on a way to scrape and make mastodon searchable but they got hounded off mastodon I believe?

I tried to use hashtags but the ones I followed seemed to have a large number of terminally online/bots posting links making finding anything useful practically useless. In the end I got fed up of the feeling I was shouting into the void. I want to use and like Mastodon but I felt like I was fighting the system.

I'm just glad Lemmy seems to have taken off it's not perfect but it's certainly on the way

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Yeag you are spot on, the big problem with Mastodon is that they have all these ideas about how to be better than twitter that actually just break what people are looking for from the twitter experience.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The ‘Local’ and ‘Federated’ tabs are a live feed of post from your home instance and all the other instances, respectively. I feel these are pretty useless and definitely don’t warrant their own tabs. Having a local trending tab for seeing popular posts on your instance would be more interesting.

I might agree with you on federated, but the local timeline on smaller or tight knit instances tend to be really nice. I'm on this instance's Hajkey (slightly customized Firefish fork) and spend most of my time on the local timeline. It's only when you get to the size of .social, .online and whatnot that it loses it's usefulness. And that seems to be the direction website boy wants to take Mastodon given he took the local timeline out from the official Mastodon mobile app.

The search bar basically doesn’t work, is this just me???

Full text search is an admin setting that can be turned on and off I believe. It (the way Mastodon implements it at least) takes a lot of server resources which is why most instances don't bother.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

> Mastodon seems to have two goals: To be an example of how a federated alternative to Twitter can work well, and to be a healthier social media experience. It’s not obvious, but I think these goals conflict with each other. A lot of the features that are removed in the pursuit of a healthier social media will be perceived as the shortcomings of federation as a concept.

Basically this all over.

IMO, Mastodon is a paradox that the fediverse needs to move on from. It is not an alternative to Twitter, but, its popularity rests on this very perception. And so we have a dominant platform, that most consider to actually just be the whole fediverse, whose dominance is in many ways arbitrary or luck of circumstance. Which is fine ... that's how things happen. But the sooner we move on from Mastodon dominating the fediverse the better.

The way I've put it previously is that Mastodon is an awkward middle ground that actually doesn't work too well for many people. It's neither particularly safe/healthy or particularly engaging or interesting. And so many BIPOC avoid it while there are LGBTQ folks who openly consider it problematic and are ready to jump ship whenever necessary, while journalists and anyone who's looking to form wide networks (without being influencers or doing anything for-profit) don't see the point. In many ways, it's the white/western suburbia of social media ... and while that's a nice place to visit or be sometimes, there's a good reason to not live there or be there all the time, especially when online.

On top of all that, it's actually a pretty simple/brutalist take on what social media can be, to the point of being unnecessarily backward. And yet, by the numbers, it is basically the fediverse (like literally ~88% of active users are on mastodon!).

The fediverse can do better. Will do better, and already has.

  • There's firefish (and Misskey too, from which it was forked, and Iceshrimp and Hajkey which are forks of firefish)
  • There's Akkoma
  • Then there's Lemmy and kbin.
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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (15 children)

This reads like it was written by someone who wants to be an influencer on Mastodon and is frustrated that its designed so that can't happen.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

What if I tell you all of the points you mentioned are in Lemmy too?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I mean, you're not wrong. The "problems" of Mastodon are features. Avoiding an algorithm to suggest toots was done on purpose. It's why likes are simply for the author, not really for others. Boost promote toots by increasing exposure.

Likes are not the same as likes on Twitter, nor should they really matter. The intent of Mastodon is not to promote some toots over others due to popularity which many times just creates feedback loops. It's why you would see repetitive content on Reddit and if Lemmy gets remotely the same size, it'll suffer the same way. Algorithms are problematic in that they tend to get abused.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I have barely ever used Twitter and yet I tried Mastodon, but it is uninteresting to me, maybe I just don't like microblogging social media, Reddit/Lemmy in other part is easier for me to get addicted lol.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Watching Mastodon-stans defend the lack of search is like watching a cult-member explain an insane belief.

So far, Lemmy feels like the least cultish corner of the fediverse. That might be due t it's external focus.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Mastodon has a feature that allows you to migrate from one instance to another within Mastodon. Lemmy does not, and I think this is an important feature to have

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