this post was submitted on 30 Jun 2024
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It's implicit in their stance against exploitation. A chicken, for example, cannot give their eggs to a human, with informed consent, and therefor taking their eggs is a form of theft and exploitation.
chickens can't consent to anything at all. it's absurd. I oppose exploiting fossil fuel deposits, but that has nothing to do with consent either.
Okay, but that's a whataboutism and has nothing to do with animals. Think about the lowly bee, for example. People often get tripped up when it comes to bugs and veganism. They're smaller, and must be dumber right? And anyway their minds work in such an alien way to our own that we can't assume they even perceive things the way that we do.
And yet if you poke a beehive, the behavior of its inhabitants appears to be something that's functionally identical to anger, and they begin defending their colony in a way where they seem to be expressing something that strongly resembles a lack of consent to having their home assaulted. So even in this case of such a vastly different kind of animal it's natural to conclude that any taking of their honey is not wanted - not consented to - and thus is a form of exploitation.
There's nothing absurd about valuing consent.
it's fine to value consent. but it's absurd to talk about consent from something incapable of it.
If a dog is excited to see you, and trying their best to chase your hands with their head, is that not a form of the dog giving you consent for pets? Animals to some limited degree can give consent for things like that at least. But most other things, if they can't give consent then you should assume that you shouldn't do the thing.
A chicken has eggs for their own reasons. They can't give consent to give them away, but be realistic - do you really think there's a chance that a hen would consent to you taking what she believes are going to be her children? They are not yours to take. Why is my position of respecting consent and not exploiting animals absurd, as compared to concluding wholesale that they just can't give consent and therefor... what? Do we just do whatever we want to them?
she would need to believe that. i have no evidence that chickens believe their eggs to be their children.
You don't need to know what a chicken believes to recognize that their behaviours indicate they do not want others to steal their eggs.
as far as i know, chickens don't recognize property claims. they cannot possibly have a moral opposition or even a personal revulsion toward theft.
Let’s say they don’t recognize property claims. Why does that then make it right for you to take their eggs?
Many say the native Americans didn’t understand the European concept of owning land (property claim). I’m not sure whether that’s true, but if it were would that then mean it was okay for Europeans to take their land?
Your logic doesn’t make sense to me. “They can’t say ‘no’ and they probably don’t understand property so I’ll just go ahead and do what I want.” Lame
i'm saying there is no reason it's not ok to take the eggs, and recognition of property rights can't possibly be a good reason not to do so. it's possible there is some reason, but it can't be that the chickens think the eggs belong to them, since there is no evidence for that claim.
i think it's fine to oppose exploitation. it's absurd to premise that opposition on consent.
I wouldn't say that I premise exploitation on consent. Afterall I'm being exploited at a minimum wage job, and that is something that I more or less consented to.
But in the case of animals, consent has to play a significant role, because a core part of their oppression is the complete absence of their bodily autonomy. There is a great deal of intersectionality between women's rights and non-human animal's rights.
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Sexual_Politics_of_Meat.html?id=aU28CgAAQBAJ
i'm saying you premise your opposition to exploitation on consent. and i'm saying that's absurd.
I wouldn't say that consent is the premise of my opposition, just one important component of it. I don't remember this discussion so well anymore, but earlier you had pointed out that exploited workers often do consent to their exploitation - and I would agree that exploitation can occur even with consent.
it's not a what aboutism.
How is it not a whataboutism? You're talking about a completely different form of exploitation that has nothing to do with animals (unless we're talking about habitat destruction displacing wild animals).
No, in this context, the second person's argument wouldn't be considered a true whataboutism. Here's why:
It's more like an analogy with limitations. The second person is trying to show that the concept of consent isn't universally applicable within the ethical framework of veganism. However, the analogy isn't perfect because animals are sentient beings, unlike fossil fuels.
So, what could it be called?
There isn't a single term that perfectly captures the second person's argument. It's a combination of:
By acknowledging these points, the first person can still argue that consent, or the lack thereof, is a powerful motivator for them personally within the broader ethical framework of veganism.
What is this technology?
i don't recall whether i used bard or copilot for this, but i am thinking i used copilot
what aboutism is a form of tu quoque. I'm not making any kind of accusation, I'm making an argument from analogy.
Can you demonstrate an example of animal exploitation where consent does not play a role?
since no animal can be informed, consent never plays a role. it's absurd.
When someone is intoxicated to the point that they can't make informed consent to have relations with another person, does that give the other person the right to just declare that consent plays no role and is absurd? No, the correct response to someone being unable to consent, is that it's an automatic no. The same should apply for non-human animals.
A chicken can't consent to their eggs being taken, so they should be left alone. A cow can't consent to being artificially inseminated, so they shouldn't be forcibly impregnated just so their milk can be stolen (another thing they can't consent to).
Oh and btw, I'm reticent to even mention this because it was only an appeal to authority in the first place, but the Vegan Society has materials on their site where they talk about why raising animals for their products is unethical - and the animals being unable to consent is part of that discussion.
i think most vegans say that the vegan society's definition is the one tehy use. it's pointless to argue without clear definitions, so i chose one i thought would be acceptable. do you have another definition you would prefer?
No that was a good call, I do also refer back to the Vegan Society's definition.
why? if something categorically can't consent, that is not the same as a person, which categorically is capable of consent even if the particular circumstances preclude that capability. why should we treat plants, fungi, animas, machines, or other artifacts as though they might be able to consent? our standards for behavior should be the same for all of the vis-a-vis consent.
I would say that in their own way most animals can communicate their desires, and to at least some degree we can infer consent or non-consent from that. Chickens tend to be protective of their eggs, so it's reasonable to conclude that they wouldn't consent to us taking them. Same with bees and honey. And certainly the same with cows and the entire process of producing dairy. In addition to the sexual assault that people do to get cows pregnant, it's well known that when baby cows are separated from their mothers, the mothers cry out loudly for their children for several days.
But again, I do agree that consent is not the only criteria. We should seek a point where our societies no longer see sentient living beings as products or commodities full stop. And I think that this commodification of thinking, living beings bleeds out and serves as the archetype of our commodification of each other, like in the way that the capitalist sees their "workers" as a form of "capital".
this seems to be a completely separate argument, and one that might have merit, but you have not actually given me any reason to believe it.
artificial insemination is a veterinary procedure. it's not sexual assault.
I still think every mention of consent is absurd. I don't solicit consent from my lawn before mowing it or my phone before charging it or my car before putting my whole self inside of it and thrusting a key in the ignition. and for the same reason I wouldn't think of soliciting consent from a chicken: it makes no sense
You keep comparing animals to inanimate objects. What exactly makes a chicken more like your car, and less like a person?
they are identical to a car in their ability to participate with informed consent.
i have never dug for those but i'm fascinated by what arguments they present.