this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2023
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[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (20 children)

The narrative that the average joe is to blame for this shit is so infuriating to me. Myself and 50,000 other people could do just that and it very likely wouldn’t come close to offsetting the emissions of Amazon’s fleet of trucks.

Yes individual consumption matters, but there’s a very small group of individuals called billionaires that contribute 1000x more than you or I ever could. BP invented the idea of the individual carbon footprint.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The average person is the reason Amazon exists, so... That's still on the average person.

This is what people miss in this false dichotomy. Businesses only exist because demand exists. Countries need to start passing unpopular things like Carbon Taxes to seal the deal against climate change by hitting consumer demand and raising prices

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not demanding products which harm the environment made using methods which harm the environment. Businesses make the choice to produce those things instead of carbon-neutral environmentally friendly products, so they are more at fault than the individual who buys the thing. It's extremely difficult for an individual to be able to uncover the environmental implications of everything you buy and do. The only real solution is to pass laws which properly account for the harmful externalities in the production cost, such as carbon tax. That will steer both businesses and consumers towards more sustainable decisions.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I also am demanding similar products, which is why capital has already shifted (and continues to shift) toward green/sustainables.

We don't need laws to provide for externalities of consumption in most markets. Most markets are being changed by consumer demand.

What would be most effective is carbon pricing. Unfortunately, that is a non-starter with most voters as it essentially means price increases across the board (which would actually be more helpful during inflation, but people never see it that way)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I wonder how big that capital shift actually is. Most companies are greenwashing, saying products are sustainable and carbon neutral when surprise, surprise, they are not. As a consumer you can't even trust those products. As a small example you got H&M recently pulling back they Conscious line and lying about recyling clothes that actually ended up in landfills.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oddly enough, without changing buying habits or consumer demand, I think the Amazon truck is a superior option.

  • Instead of thousands of individual trips to the store for small things, a single vehicle delivers everything
  • Instead of many hyper-local stores packed with things that may or may not eventually be sold, only things that have been purchased are shipped and transported

The trick, as you said, is to change consumer behavior and people balk at doing that, especially when it will cost more and income inequality hits harder than ever. Tax the rich, level the playing field, and the rest gets much easier.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Instead of many hyper-local stores packed with things that may or may not eventually be sold, only things that have been purchased are shipped and transported

Yeah but Amazon mixes up its inventory so cheap copies are right next to genuine stuff.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Be real mate. Thats not how it works.

Suppliers create the demand.

People werent demanding smartphones before smartphones got invented.

Most new things are shunned by most people until they slowly gain popularity and then the demand starts to exist.

You are stating the hypothesis of capitalism whilst ignoring the conclusion.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

If you want to kill BP, stop buying oil. The Amazon fleet is about 70,000 vehicles and they're transitioning to electric right now.

Consumers drive markets. Mega corporations aren't polluting for the fun of it. They do it because it's a byproduct of them taking our money. Stop giving them money and they stop polluting. Why else would they stop?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

"Voting with your dollar" is bullshit. Just stop buying oil? Ok, let me go to the no oil store and buy a new car that doesn't run on gas and isn't made with any plastic. Let me spend my entire 5 dollars worth of disposable income to buy a new vehicle. And then take that vehicle to the store that has 0 petroleum products. No cans lined with PFAS, no plastic bags, no plastic packaging, no products made entirely of plastic. Never fly again in your life, or take the bus. Don't you even think about eating out again. Live life as a hermit, make your own goods, provide your own services and maintinence to yourself to ensure an oil free existence. Better start soon too, the planets only getting hotter. Rinse and repeat x8,000,000,000.

Markets are driven by capital. Those with the most capital have the greatest influence. Your pittance of a wage isn't going to change a damn thing. 10% of the global population has 52% of the purchasing power. Even if the other 90% of us all united together at once, about a single thing, we still wouldn't have the purchasing power to overwhelm them. You can't reform a system that's made to perpetuate consumption and pollution. It's cheaper to pollute by design. Do you think it's a coincidence that bills meant to make polluting more expensive either don't get passed or are so rife with loopholes they're effectively useless? Pull your head out of your ass. If there was ever a time this shit show could be reformed, it's long gone.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

While true that they're not polluting for fun, many corporations will try to avoid any anti-pollution measure that will lose them money. To the point where they spend billions if dollars every year to lobby governements and drag out regulations with lawsuits. Because in the long run it's usually worth it for them to pollute, as long as the investors see profits.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Of course they will. Corporations do not care. They will only do things that make them money. Either because governments threaten to take away their money. Or because markets change and they're no longer making money so they have to change.

We have seen this with so so so many industries over the centuries. Consumers change behaviours and businesses move to fit their needs. If everyone here started eating less meat there would be more investment in plant based ideas. Because they don't care about what the impacts of their company are. They care what you and I are buying.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The Amazon fleet is about 70,000 vehicles and they’re transitioning to electric right now.

They are not doing this because of the goodness of their heart. They are doing it because of $$$$. Gas costs more, so it's more economical to switch to electric.

Rest assured, if there are other places where it's more economical to strip mine the environment and increase the rate of climate change, they will switch to that cheaper method in a heartbeat, if they aren't already doing so.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

If it was an option, I wouldn’t buy oil. I can’t just up and buy an EV even if I wanted to (I do). Not that that’s even a completely green option. Also, 5000 EVs vs 10 times as many trucks in the whole fleet is cool, but it doesn’t make me want Amazon to burn to the ground any less.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

either way the average joe is gonna need to do something cuz the billionaires wont. lets just kill them

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

you do realise that these companies do these things because customers buy them, right? If you didn't buy stuff on amazon, there wouldn't be any amazon trucks around.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

you do realize that I don’t buy stuff from Amazon and there are still Amazon trucks around right?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Yes, you are correct in that a single individual's action will make no difference, just like your single vote makes no difference either. However if everyone does their part it can make a massive difference.

While your individual contribution makes no difference, you still should try to do your part. Yes, change takes work and a bit of sacrifice. Just like how it takes time out of your day to do research on candidates and go to the polls.

If you don't do the work, it doesn't make you smart or clever, it just makes you an asshole taking advantage of others.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not to support Amazon, but those trucks on optimized delivery routes are likely better for the environment than individials each driving their own cars to box stores...

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If only we had some nationalized way to deliver parcels on an optimized route…

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Can't do that. It's profitable so it has to go to private companies.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You existing is why those companies use that energy.

I agree that it's BS to put the blame on the average person's behavior.

But the blame is on us collectively.

We use a lot of energy.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Those companies are the reason that energy isn’t produced with cleaner alternatives like nuclear, wind, or solar

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Billionaires and corporations lobby governments and donate to superPACs(legal bribery) to have them promote their business interests and protect their capital.

Infinite growth is not sustainable on a finite planet. The billionaires aren’t going to save us. Buying stuff is not going to save us. Neoliberalism and Capitalism is not going to save us.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think that billionaires are some kinde of problem but megacorps (big 9, Nestle, cocacola, fashion industry) are much worst :(

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hate to be devils advocate here, but even if billionaires contribute 1000x each, there is just one of them for 1000x1000x1000x1000x people so in total their contribution does not matter. What matters is their business choices which favor unsustainable practies for billions of people, so eventually they have a huge effect, just not directly.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

While true that total consumption is less than the rest of the population, billionaires have a very large influence and people try to mimic them. If they don't set an example and still fly everywhere in a private jet, those 1000x1000x1000x1000x people will also say f it, if a billionaire can't do it, I certainly can't.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

If we are talking about giving an example, while I agree in part, I also find there are people more popular and influential than billonaires. Half of the top 10 richest people are not really public personas at least from where I stand. Conversely, you do not need to be billionaire to produce 10000x CO2, you need some money but not that much. These people need to be also in attention focus. Even just middle upper class who like to fly a lot, the difference it makes is huge. Billionaires do their own part, but through ownership of large companies and their relation to customers, I think is more important way in which they make a difference.

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