Update:
The comments from this post will not be removed as to preserve the discussion around the announcement. Any continued discussions outside of this thread that violate server rules will be removed. We feel that everyone that has an opinion, and wanted to vent, has been heard.
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Original post:
Yesterday, we received information about the planned federation by Hexbear. The announcement thread can be found here: https://www.hexbear.net/post/280770. After reviewing the thread and the comments, it became evident that allowing Hexbear to federate would violate our rules.
Our code of conduct and server rules can be found here.
The announcement included several concerning statements, as highlighted below:
- “Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated.”
- “The West's role in the world, through organizations such as NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank - among many others - are deeply harmful to the billions of people living both inside and outside of their imperial core.”
- “These organizations constitute the modern imperial order, with the United States at its heart - we are not fooled by the term "rules-based international order." It is in the Left's interest for these organizations to be demolished. When and how this will occur, and what precisely comes after, is the cause of great debate and discussion on this site, but it is necessary for a better world.”
The rhetoric and goal of Hexbar are clear based on their announcement: to "dismantle western propaganda" and "demolish organizations such as NATO” shows that Hexbar has no intention of "respecting the rules of the community instance in which they are posting/commenting.” It’s to push their beliefs and ideology.
In addition, several comments from a Hexbear admin, demonstrate that instance rules will not be respected.
Here are some examples:
“I can assure you there will be no lemmygrad brigades, that energy would be better funneled into the current war against liberalism on the wider fediverse.”
“All loyal, honest, active and upright Communists must unite to oppose the liberal tendencies shown by certain people among us, and set them on the right path. This is one of the tasks on our ideological front.”
- https://lemmy.world/comment/121850
- https://lemmy.world/comment/1487168
- https://lemmy.world/comment/1476084
- https://lemmy.world/comment/171595
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3648500
Overall community comments:
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3526128
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3526086
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3652828
To clarify, for those who have inquired about why Hexbear versus Lemmygrad, it should be noted that we are currently exploring the possibility of defederating from Lemmygrad as well based on similar comments Hexbear has made.
- https://lemmygrad.ml/post/158656
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/882559
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/540170
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/446529
Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. However, based on their comments and behavior, no positive outcomes can be expected.
We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons. While we understand that not everyone may agree with our decision, we believe it is important to prioritize the best interests of our community.
As an instance owner myself some of this is concerning. I understand why lemmy.world would want to defederate from them. I won't defederate on my instance at this point, but if personal attacks start to happen or rules get broken, then it will be considered.
This i feel is the best take for most instance owners. Wait, watch and react. Good to keep federation going until you actually observe them participating in bad faith
I mean, they said they were going to be shitty, why wouldn't we believe them?
I’ve watched this song and dance, and participated in it, for decades. Putting up with gross people because they might feel like being decent is just delaying an ever escalatingly divisive and inevitable bandaid pull. Saw it with voat freezepeach, saw it with trump freezepeach, saw it with several hateful freezepeach sites. The lemmy.world admins did the right thing.
Let me ask you a question: if an instance popped up that said their purpose was to collect child porn, would you wait until you saw some child porn before defederating? What about something more mild, like if their mission was to dox and harass climate activists?
I think the exception to defederating being a last resort is when you have an instance that says upfront that they are going to be a problem. In that case, I think we should believe them.
I've defederated from lemmynsfw.com because someone subscribed to them and I saw the pornography on my instance and that is against one of the site rules. The same would be said for any other pornography or breaking of site rules no matter where it came from. At this point though, hexabear have not harassed anybody on my instance or broken any of the site rules, so there is no basis to defederate them. If that does happen, then a decision will be made.
my jaw just dropped did you just compare a socialist instance to CSAM and doxers bahahahaha
That's such a tired style of argument. No, I didn't draw any equivalency between them. I made an analogy that was further on the spectrum to make a philosophical point. And then I picked another analogy that I clearly pointed out was way more mild. What's your answer to the question? When someone says they're going to do something bad, do you just stand there and wait for them to do it?
It is this kind of back and forth we would be having if we didn't defederate. It's tiring.
they're both shit analogies is my point, why even start with CSAM and nothing hexbear does or would do is close to doxing. Their admins aren't encouraging brigading and I would be surprised if you could even find 5 comments actually encouraging that in the federation post (and no, saying that you must dunk on the libs with me comrades!!! type posts are not threats to brigade, they're jokes lol)
"it was just a joke, bro" has never convinced anyone.
Your post history is a pretty good indicator that lemmygrad should be next up on for defederation. Additionally, it was pretty easy to find a comment on one of your posts calling for violence. Upvoted, of course.
People can have different opinions on topics mate. This whole "one user said XYZ I don't like, we should defederate" needs to end.
One user advocated for violence, the comment is upvoted, and it's a top level comment on a post the guy I responded to posted, so I can be reasonably sure he saw it. So, the options we have in front of us are that he did the right thing and reported it, but the mods/admins didn't act, or he saw it and didn't report it.
Which one screams "we want these people to be federated with us"?
It is NOT one user.
link it then. I'm not seeing anything in my first couple pages of comments... Unless you meant the death to America comment?
And yes, when people are making jokes amongst themselves they do get to say it's a joke, it wasn't meant for you???
https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/570166
Quote:
holy shit I thought you meant a comment I had made, you went looking through posts on my profile? that's 8 posts down what are you doing lol. Anyways yeah that's not against our rules, they didn't make that comment in someone else's instance I don't really understand what the issue is. they weren't threatening anyone directly, that's just venting
That's advocating violence. Are you saying advocating violence isn't against lemmygrad's rules?
Edit: and how often are you going to try the "it was just a joke, bro" before it sinks it that this is not a defense?
because it wasn't meant for you??? Do you ease drop on people's conversations IRL and get mad at jokes they make? I never even claimed that was a joke, I said it was venting.
Regardless, what does it matter? You can go to lemmygrad.ml and check our rules. We don't have the same rules as lemmy.world, and our users are generally pretty good about following them. Should we defederate from lemmy.world because they allow language we don't allow like b*itch, etc?
What do you mean eavesdrop? Do you understand how any of this works? It wasn't a private conversation, based on the fact that I could link directly to it.
You're free to advocate for defederation as you see fit. However, if your instance is the kind that celebrates "venting" (it was just venting, bro!) about murdering people, I'd say it's pretty incompatible with lemmy.world.
Honestly, after spending a couple minutes reading your posts and the comments on them, I found myself being reminded of the_donald on reddit.
@[email protected]
God I wish being purposefully obtuse on the internet was bannable. You know what I mean. people make comments on hexbear for other users of hexbear who will understand it's a joke, not for some random .world anticommunist to come in and pretend they've never heard of people joking in online forums before. why did you tag the admin, just use the report button???
so they can participate in other comms? also 1) that's a lemmygrad comment we're discussing, please actually read through the convos, and 2) It's just like Reddit, there are a ton of inside jokes that don't make sense unless you spend a certain amount of time there but that doesn't mean you can't show up and still enjoy it, but when someone who's used to it goes "yeah they're doing a bit" you don't go accuse them of doing the insult disguised at a joke thing
You misunderstand. I don't think you said anything against the rules, so the report function isn't appropriate. I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that it is your understanding that lemmygrad allows calls for violence.
And you aren't going to convince me it was anything other than a call for violence. You can downplay it all you'd like but all that does is paint you in a worse light. Would you approve of "venting" about rape, too? If not, why not?
because I view rape as worse than murder, and it's just generally really weird? I'm not ceding it as a call for violence because they're not actually calling for anyone specific to die. They didn't tag any users or specify any irl person, because it's not meant to be taken 100% seriously. and yes, I can claim that, because 1) it was made for other lemmygrad users to look at and 2) it's a comment that follows with:
like come on you can not tell me that is meant to be taken 100% seriously, they're using extreme hyperbole all throughout the comment
I would personally dm one of the actual admin accounts (at least that's what I do), how often do they even check that account they've made like 5 posts with it
Edit: ultimately you could probably find worse comments from some other accounts I know get spicier than that
Did.. you just use "it's just a joke, bro" again?
So as long as no specific person is threatened with rape, you should be fine with it, right? What if, instead of an ideology, they said people of a certain heritage should be shot? Still no one specific, but like, "Jewish people" or "people of color", instead of "anti-tankies". You still cool with that? If not, why not?
why are you so obsessed with rape analogies it's fucking weird
Because those analogies show the huge gaping flaw in this guy's stance.
because they're not the same thing? are you really trying to equate political ideology to race??? what the actual fuck?
Yes. the "it's a joke bro" argument comes from when you go into a random comment thread or argument and make some asinine comment and then pretend it's a joke. It would be like if I tried to drop some joke that insulted you rn, and said that "it was just a joke".
Example:
Do you really think his anger was enough to make "the Planck-Temperature look like fucking ice cream-absolute zero with a douse of liquid nitrogen by comparison." do you really think that he wants to actually kill all neoliberals? I know people like to pretend that "ebil tankies" are just some subhuman monsters that would destroy the entire planet because it makes them feel good or something but no he I can promise you he doesn't actually wanna kill everyone
I'm trying to point out that it doesn't matter who you threaten to murder, or why. You aren't so radicalized that you don't see that it's wrong when it's one of the "obvious" ones like race, but somehow you've been convinced it's perfectly fine to do it when it's "anti-tankies". Does that really make sense to you? Why would one be okay and the other not, if it's just "venting" and harmless? (hint: because part of you knows it's not okay)
I never said anything negative about people on the far-left. You're projecting to deflect from something you know is wrong. I don't know if he really wants to shoot people. All I know is that he said people should be killed for what they believe.
It does matter. this is a common thing on the far left. we view neoliberals as largely responsible for the state of the world, and people express their anger in crazy ways sometimes. I have a friend who threatens to bomb my house, he's threatened to drive his car through my living room window, and he's done this in the middle of yelling screaming arguments. I have never for 1 second thought he was serious, it's a way for him to express anger in a jokey manner. The reason I don't care about advocating for violence is because ultimately the only way for communists to come to power will be through some level of violence, the state won't allow us to take power peacefully. what the hell is someone making some hyperbolic statement compared to actually having to use violence in the real world if the need somehow ever arises (I don't have a lot of faith in the western left). This is normally where tankie accusations get thrown around I doubt you want to hear why I'm a marxist blahblahblah
I don't view violence as fundamentally wrong. I abhor that it's necessary, but advocating pure non-violence in the face of a state that has shown it will murder you with no remorse is both foolish and also ignores the violence that the status quo inflicts on the poor and minorities every single day.
Also, I'm not sure what exactly sure what you mean about you saying something negative about the far-left. I called you an anticommunist because by and large anticommunists are always pushing for lemmygrad to be defederated. The only other thing was the "im just joking" example which was just me trying to come up with an example on the spot
Sure, and some Nazi blames the Jewish people for all the wrongs in the world. Does that mean that it's justified if a Nazi says all Jewish people should be shot in the head?
And this doesn't start your spider sense tingling that maybe you're on the wrong side of things? Holy shit, do you do even half a minute of introspection? I'm sure fascists would say the same thing. Are they also justified in violence?
Do you think it's wrong that the ""status quo"" uses violence? After all, you don't view it as fundamentally wrong, right? So it's not fundamentally wrong when it's used against you, either?
You set up a straw man about so called "ebil tankies" that I never said or even implied, to justify advocating for violence.
Here's the kicker. Take everything you said, and then look at it and tell me if I personally deserve violence. I'm generally capitalist (democratic socialist is just capitalism light). You seem to imply you have no choice but violence against me. Is this truly how feel, or is all this simply to justify some stranger getting upvoted when they advocate violence, so you don't have to admit your instance is toxic?
please for the love of god stop equating political ideology and ethnicity, absolutely baffling behavior. I would ask you something about Nazi's but I'm going to tiptoe around the .world rules here
More than you would think I bet. do you think I just stumbled onto these beliefs happily? I've never even been in anything as violent as even a fucking fist fight in my life, I wish more than anything that it didn't have to be this way. Here's a quote from the Jakarta Method that sums up why I believe this quite nicely:
Please read long quote below (emphasis mine)
I don't oppose the status quo because it uses violence, I oppose it because it uses it against the working class, communists, minorities, really anybody who threatens the status quo. I would support the status quo if it was using that violence to protect the working class, communists, minorities, so that we will one day achieve a communist society where the state no longer even exists to use this violence. As long as the state exists, someone is going to use the violence it holds, and I want that violence to serve the interests of the working class, not the likes of billionaires who are currently hurtling us towards manman climate change disaster, if not extinction.
I threw in the part about evil tankies because you seemed to be taking that comment as them seriously 100% wanting every single neoliberal to die and that there's no hyperbole there, which is very consistent with what people who throw around the term tankie say, they say we're the scum of the Earth who just find joy in murdering puppies or something. Seemed like where the conversation was going, forgive me, I've seen way too many people from .world head down that path so I had my guard up, it's annoying to have a conversation derailed by it
I have no clue if you "personally deserve violence". I don't really like playing the hypothetical game, and tbh even if I wanted to say so I wouldn't be able to because of the rules of this instance. If you're really truly interested in that part of the conversation we could take it somewhere else. I wouldn't be any more mean than I am now, I reserve that for people who come in to troll on lemmygrad and nazis
Explain to me the difference between advocating to murder one group and not the other. From where I'm standing, your stance lines up perfectly with a fascist's, just on the other end of the spectrum.
No, I think you were radicalized.
The person you are defending wasn't talking about any government or world power; they said "anti-tankies" who couldn't be re-educated should be killed. Who does that sound like? Next you'll be advocating for rounding up all the "anti-tankies" and putting them into "reeducation camps". Right?
So? You don't have an issue with using violence to get what you want, why is it wrong for the ""status quo"" to do the same thing? Your sophomoric stance is "violence is okay when it's used against the bad people" but who the "bad people" are is entirely subjective. Do you not see how this fails even at a conceptual level? What would you advocate someone who thinks tankies are the "bad people" do? Should they resort to violence? Is that the appropriate action? If not, why?
Let's take a slightly longer view of this. Let's say your dream comes true and "anti-tankies" are "reeducated" or killed, and the big bad ""status quo"" is finally defeated. What happens if a group of "anti-tankies" grows in your new utopia, when you're the ""status quo""? Do you resort to violence?
You are what you claim to abhor.
You have spent several comments over several hours defending murdering people; your stance has long since moved from "it was just a joke, bro" to "I agree that murdering people is the solution". Do you really not understand how that makes you appear? All this comment chain required was you to say "yeah, man, that's messed up-- calls for violence are wrong". Yet, here we are.
What?? This was a softball question to help you redeem yourself. The only acceptable answer is "No". Holy shit.
@[email protected]
Well you really weren't having a conversation in good faith, dumb of me to expect better I guess, I'm a tankie after all
I'm not going to keep talking to someone who refuses to admit that people use extreme hyperbole. I'm not going to sit here and fucking tell you another 30 times that is obviously not a fucking plan of action that user wants to commit.
You also totally sidestepped my quote, which wasn't really about his little comment. it was to explain why I believe violence will be necessary to take power, my belief in which this quote was your response
I'm not going to keep talking in hypotheticals. this is debate pervertry of the worst kind, I'm a marxist we believe in keeping things grounded in the real world, which is why I linked you that quote. I have actual hard fucking evidence (of which that quote is literally just the smallest part, we could sit here for fucking days going over everything the United States alone has done to maintain power) that the capitalist world order will resort to extreme violence greater than any socialist state has ever dreamed of using to kill all who stand in their way of profit.
I dont give a shit about redeeming myself, I didn't advocate violence against you in the slightest, but I'm saying how could you believe I'm telling the truth? I'm trying to follow the rules of this instance, so if I were to answer that you do deserve violence I would be breaking the rules, why do you keep concern trolling like this
Anyways I'll let you have the last word, done engaging after this
I am sure if you report anyone for calling you a b*tch there will be consequences. "No name-calling" is in the rules.
See it is discussions like this that would happen all the time. No need for this crap.
what? I report people on my server all the time, I check their lemmy.world accounts I'm fairly certain I've never seen one actually banned from .world other than like 1 nazi, every other one is banned by lemmygrad admins only