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Israel says drone launched towards Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's house (www.abc.net.au)
submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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The Israeli government says a drone has been launched at Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netayahu's house.

In Gaza, more than 50 people have been killed in several Israeli strikes, including children, in less than 24 hours, according to hospital officials

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Most things I'm saying can be found in the Wikipedia page on the attack and the festival massacre

Thanks! There actually a couple of pages in this area for each so if you have specific Wikipedia articles to link to, that would help a bit. Otherwise I'll make do, no worries either way.

Note that this is the only article that explicitly states that the drone both hit and was fired by Hezbollah,

Thanks for the reference! Very helpful.

so it could be a mistake on their part but I personally don't think so.

Yeah they haven't updated it after a couple of days, so it seems legit.

That was, in fact, the case.

Ok, that seems fair then. It wasn't part of the plan.

On an operational level it was a good opportunity to take hostages, but for multiple reason, including the aforementioned laxness, it quickly devolved into what we now know as the Nova music festival massacre.

Again, fair.

Still fucked up, but from what I understand it seemed like they could do it without compromising their initial objective at the time.

Yep, fair.

Israel takes hostages (also known as detainees) all the time

Hostage taking is wrong either way. Once found to be a genuine and innocent civilian who had nothing to do with the matter, that person should be released by the IDF. (It's different matter when enemy combatants are captured, but even then we have Geneva conventions and such to follow.)

you can't free them without something to trade. and that something was hostages in this case.

Something is deeply sickening about this. The idea that innocent civilians can just be taken and used as cards to trade. (Doesn't matter who or which side, the idea is sick no matter who is behind it, IDF or Hamas.)

I consider it a "don't blame the player, blame the game" situation.
I view it as a realpolitik military/political decision

Neither side should stoop that low. But if one side does stoop that low, that doesn't give the other wise a free pass to do the same thing.

I see why realpolitik is so deeply disliked.

You might say that the hostages didn't really help (other than free a few detainees), and in hindsight you'd be right

Yup.

but nobody could predict the perfect storm of Netanyahu's desperation for a forever war to keep him in power

I'll give credit here. Hamas really screwed up as it seems like things were on the verge of a grand bargain of peace here with Saudi Arabia helping to ensure an independent State of Palestine - see https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/09/israel-gaza-war-biden-netanyahu-peace-negotiations/679581/

And then it all broke down in the aftermath.

and the until-then-unknown insanity of Biden's Zionism.

Eh, the same article shows Biden really didn't want this, though he also feared publicly breaking with Netanyahu.

Even now he's still (feebly and ineffectively) pushing for Israel to stop, as per the headline "Biden tells Netanyahu it's time to end Gaza war after Sinwar's elimination" : https://www.axios.com/2024/10/17/biden-netanyahu-sinwar-gaza-war

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

But if one side does stoop that low, that doesn't give the other wise a free pass to do the same thing.

I mean it's easy to say that when you don't have family or friends being detained and tortured in Israeli prisons.

I'll give credit here. Hamas really screwed up as it seems like things were on the verge of a grand bargain of peace here with Saudi Arabia helping to ensure an independent State of Palestine

I know about that naturalization deal, and so did everyone that mattered at the time. It's widely theorized that one of the purposes of the deal was to prevent naturalization with Saudi Arabia from happening, specifically because it wouldn't contribute anything to Palestinian statehood. You'll find the details if you look, or I can grab them from somewhere, but either way don't take what The Atlantic says too seriously. Naturalization was widely viewed as a betrayal by Saudi Arabia of the Palestinian cause, and not at all a grand deal that would free them from Israeli oppression.

Eh, the same article shows Biden really didn't want this, though he also feared publicly breaking with Netanyahu.

Biden cares more about Zionism than about US democracy and his career, or at least that's what it would seem from his actions. That's why I said his Zionist insanity. Literally no other US administration except Trump would support Israel's genocide to the extent Biden is. He's not even clearing the bar Reagan set.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

But if one side does stoop that low, that doesn't give the other wise a free pass to do the same thing.
I mean it's easy to say that when you don't have family or friends being detained and tortured in Israeli prisons.

Also, it's easy to say that when you don't have family or friends being detained as hostages by Hamas in who knows where.

In case it wasn't clear, I'm on the side of the innocent folks who are being detained (doesn't matter by who).

You'll find the details if you look, or I can grab them from somewhere,

If you could, I tried looking but haven't gotten a better or more nuanced look than what was on the Atlantic. As usual, your references are super helpful!

It's widely theorized that one of the purposes of the deal was to prevent naturalization with Saudi Arabia from happening, specifically because it wouldn't contribute anything to Palestinian statehood.
and not at all a grand deal that would free them from Israeli oppression.
but either way don't take what The Atlantic says too seriously.

Hmm, right now all I can do is to quote the Atlantic article when it says,

by building a Palestinian state into the deal.

But of course, just because these details were being hashed out in secret doesn't mean the folks who scuttled the deal (Hamas) knew about it, so both could be true at the same time. (One disturbing alternative is that Hamas was aware of this detail but decided to scuttle it anyways, as they didn't agree with the two-state solution that was being built and supported by Israel, the US, Saudi Arabia, and presumably the Palestine Authority.)

Naturalization was widely viewed as a betrayal by Saudi Arabia of the Palestinian cause,

I guess this is why MBS said,

“Half my advisers say that the deal is not worth the risk,” he said. “I could end up getting killed because of this deal.”

Biden cares more about Zionism than about US democracy and his career, or at least that's what it would seem from his actions.

Yeah, that's fair - if you look only at the actions it's easy to see it this way.

He's not even clearing the bar Reagan set.

Yeah, again that's quite a bit disturbing.