this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2024
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39
On prison abolition (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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You're a prison abolitionist. You're in a high stakes discussion where you have to answer seriously and be convincing.

Someone asks you : "yeah, but what are we to do with people breaking the law, then? What will you replace prisons with ?"

What will you answer?

Edit : Thanks a lot for your answer, they were very interesting and reflecting different ways to frame a world without prisons.

Except from one or two edgelord hot takes, of course.

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[โ€“] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

In short, prison abolition isn't about abolishing prisons?

Bad name choice in my opinion, as it immediately makes me think: what a dumb idea.

This is kind of like saying being anti-war is a dumb idea because there will surely always be wars fought in defense. Being anti-war isn't necessarily being an absolute pacifist. It's about opposing war and striving towards a future where war is a relic of the past. Everybody understands this, but struggles to apply the same logic to other topics.

Striving for intentionally utopian and impossible ideals is a great idea, actually, as long as you recognize it for what it is. I'm a prison abolitionist. Ultimately what I strive for is a society that doesn't need prisons. I don't know if total prison abolition is possible, but worst case scenario, we get as close as possible. What's so bad about that?

Similarly, I'm a communist, in the classical anarchist sense: abolition of state, class, and money. Are these things possible? Maybe not. In fact, probably not, at least not in any timeframe where humanity will be recognizable to us, as it would require true peace between all people and absolute post-scarcity in every way available to everyone. But worse case scenario, we get as close as possible.

Ultimately, adopting a utopian ideal is a recognition that the struggle to do better never ends. We're never "done". There's no end of history. Even if we do somehow achieve it, it must be maintained.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Everybody understands this, but struggles to apply the same logic to other topics.

People don't go: England is polio free, yet there's people with polio.

Perhaps this method of communication is something that will have to adapt. It disengages a lot of people who otherwise would share the same goals.

[โ€“] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I don't follow. We regularly refer to polio as being "eradicated", even though there have still been documented (but exceptionally rare) cases of polio transmission even in western countries over the last couple decades. That actually sounds like a perfectly apt comparison for the goals of prison abolition, just not in the way you intended.

[โ€“] [email protected] 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

I would love to be proved wrong, and see the sources describing recent polio cases in england!

Would indeed be apt!

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

A direct case was not reported in the UK in recent years, but evidence of very likely polio transmission was found in sewage samples two years ago:

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/polio-virus-found-in-uk-sewage-samples-risk-to-public-low

A similar situation happened in New York where an actual case was found a month later:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/polio-found-new-york-wastewater-state-assesses-virus-spread-2022-08-01/

The short of it is, when vaccination rates fall, Polio can be reintroduced via transmission of the live virus found in the oral vaccine, usually taken in poorer countries. If someone were to take the oral vaccine and then immediately travel to a country with lessening vaccination rates, like is currently happening in the west due to the spread of right-wing conspiracy mongering, the live virus still in the vaccinated individual has a low but not zero chance of propagating to the unvaccinated or immune-compromised population there. Samples containing these vaccine-derived viruses are found a few times per year in most places, and it's a weaker virus so often it leads to no symptoms, but in very rare instances it does take hold with the expected effect:

https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease-outbreak-news/item/2022-DON366

Despite individual cases of polio turning up, either via direct reporting or evidence found elsewhere, it would still be correct to describe polio as being "eradicated" in these countries, at least currently. Nobody is confused by this or demands reclassification of the status of polio.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago

So, none. Traces by RNA amplification in sewages. But there very well might be a right wing conspiracy.