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Israeli Government Imposes Sanctions on Haaretz, Cuts All Ties and Pulls Advertising
(www.haaretz.com)
this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2024
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Say it as many time as you want, history will call them freedom fighter.
When you live in area with no freedom of movement, no freedom of food options, no freedom of trades, and you fight, that it is a freedom fighter.
Your people called movement in South Africa terrorist, called Irish terrorists, called Indian terrorists, called natives terrorists. Called everyone challenge you or support them terrorists.
But at the end history called them freedom fighter.
Respectfully, I disagree. Hamas hasn’t allowed elections in the region since 2007. They are authoritarian, autocratic, Islamist statists with the sole goal of the elimination of Israel. They are not focused on improving the economy of Gaza, or granting freedom to the Gazan people.
That’s exactly why it’s been explicitly stated Likud policy to support them — conservative leadership in Israel wants to see the people of Gaza violently oppressed and stirred against Israel. An enemy on the border serves the conservative agenda.
A peaceful government dedicated to increasing Gazan freedom & independence would not serve Israeli interests, which is why Netanyahu has worked so hard to keep Hamas in charge in Gaza.
Not defending Hamas tyranny in Gaza, but this is a contradiction right there. A government dedicated to increasing Gazan freedom and independence would not be peaceful, because the only time an Israeli leader attempted to bring peace to the region they fucking killed him.
Gazan independence does not demand violence; it only demands a government that is willing to put down the sword and negotiate, so that Netanyahu and Likud are not emboldened to continually tighten the noose. At least, that's what Netanyahu believes -- that a violent oppressor in Gaza is crucial to the success of Likud.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister
Like the PA did until 2000 (and since 2006, but you get the idea)? Like Hamas tried to do in 2008 and 2012? Both generally and in this conflict, that's just not how that works. Again, there was only one guy who tried to seriously negotiate and they fucking killed him.
Ah yes, if we just let the authoritarian do whatever he wants he will stop killing us. How very Chamberlain of you. How very Appeasement.
I never said that. I said that Hamas doesn't particularly care about freedom or independence in Gaza, and I stand by that.
Hamas will feed every Palestinian man, woman, and child into the Israeli war machine, if they believe that it will deprive Israel of a hectare of territory. Pushing Israel into the sea is their primary goal. That's their priority. And their aggression will insure that the war machine operates at full capacity, and that it continues to receive the active support of the international community.
Personally, I think the Palestine cause is just. Unfortunately, I think it's also futile. The hard line against Israel is gonna get a lot more people killed, with no positive result for Palestinians. At this point, the best hope for the future of the region is an independent state solution.
Why should they? Israel showed they're going to materially interfere in the elections anyways.
I 100% support Palestinian statehood but to deny that Hamas are terrorists is absurd. A true "freedom fighter" would attack only government and military targets and would never condone killing 500+ civilians at a music festival. Do you believe that's acceptable?
Hamas targets were military targets. More than 33% killed were active IDF soldiers.
The music festival next to a military base was not even supposed to be there. And there were many armed IDF soldiers at the festival (human shields anyone?)
If Hamas wanted civilian casualties they would have pushed into Israeli cities instead of raiding the heavily guarded military bases around the Gaza envelope.
For a more detailed explanation, an Israeli person made this great video https://youtu.be/Pt_1k7nSv1M
"Only two-thirds of the people killed were civilians!" is quite the defense. Impressive.
The US had a civilian casualty rate of 12/13 in Iraq.
The IDF with 70% women and children killed would have a higher civilian casualty rate than Hamas even if literally every single man they killed was an active duty Hamas fighter.
OK, and? You're seriously trying to defend 66% civilian casualties because 70%+ is worse?
Now compare that to the IDF...
I am. Killing civilians is bad, and I don't care who does it. Only on Lemmy do we see galaxy-brains decrying Palestinian deaths while brushing off 66% civilian casualties on the Israeli side.
They planned to and did attack plenty of kibbutzes, slaughtering and kidnapping all civilian inhabitants they could
Their plans were clearly to capture and ransom them. Even Israeli witnesses testify to that, as well as to the fact that the IDF did the vast majority of damage.
You can find reports from journalists that saw were shown security and bodycam footage, that describe something very different. Freedom fighters taking lots of joy in killing civilians, young and old
But I know the story on Hexbear that those were all just Mossad plants
edit: here
A few more recent sources, including some Israeli ones:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-directive-kidnap-hamas-gaza-hostages-idf/104224430
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231021-israel-settler-israel-forces-killed-hostages-not-hamas/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-06/ty-article/.premium/idf-probing-death-of-12-hostages-in-beeri-house-shelled-on-orders-of-senior-officer/0000018d-7b6c-d008-a9cd-fbfdb0040000
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officer-recounts-ordering-tank-fire-on-beeri-home-during-hostage-standoff-on-oct-7/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rTQcjyhPOIk
https://youtube.com/watch?v=bjGL0HFTgiU
https://youtube.com/watch?v=GjC0_swYbT4
I'm more than aware that a lot of Israeli civilians killed by friendly fire. But your claim that the IDF "did the vast majority of damage" is exactly the hexbear fantasy I'm talking about.
You're lying to yourself, and others. You might think it's for the better, but it's not. It's lies like these, on both sides, that lead to a worse world and more killings. It's not too late for you to change.
I don't think it's hard to imagine how tanks, artillery, and apache helicopters would do more damage than rifles and a handful of RPGs.
You just have to look at the incinerated cars and bodies from the festival to see how much damage the helicopters did there.
How many of the casualties do you think were caused by the IDF?
There's no way anyone can know that without a full and transparent investigation being done, which Israel did not allow to happen.
That said, there are many indicators that they did a significant amount of damage.
One example:
All the burned bodies and cars from the festival that were somehow burned by Hamas (with molotovs?), and ~~definitely not~~ by Apache helicopters equipped with hellfire missiles. Oh... except for the handful of bodies that turned out to be Hamas fighters. THOSE ones were killed and burned by hellfire missiles, but the Israeli bodies were burned by Hamas. And so were their cars of course. Let's not worry about why the cars were trucked off far away, shredded, and compacted before being buried. Definitely has nothing to do with making it harder to investigate what actually happened to them.
Much of this info has been available for over a year now.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_October_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel#Friendly_fire_and_use_of_the_Hannibal_Directive
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/israel-admits-immense-amount-friendly-fire-7-october
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-07/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-ordered-hannibal-directive-on-october-7-to-prevent-hamas-taking-soldiers-captive/00000190-89a2-d776-a3b1-fdbe45520000
https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
Sure I know there were a lot of friendly fire incidents.
But you said that the IDF "did the vast (capitalized) majority of damage".
Now you seem to have dialed that down quite a bit to "a significant amount of damage" and with the disclaimer "there's no way to know that". So that makes you wonder why you're making these changes when asked to support your previous argument?
That's my belief versus the mostly confirmed accounts that are based on limited evidence.
Describing it as factual was my mistake, but I did so because of how incredibly likely I think it is.
All that may be true, but when the plan went to shit, they still attacked, killed, and took hostage many civilians.
I recommend watching the video I linked to get a better understanding of what really happened.
The Anc in south Africa was responsible of killing civilians, same with many resistance groups like the mau mau in kanya, the fln in algeria and Nana Sahib soldiers in India. Nate Turner also killed women and children's of slave owners. Commiting some act of terror doesn't strip those groups and people from being freedom fighters. You support a state for Palestinians while opposing the people who are currently fighting the IDF because the West is doing nothing to stop it
And how did that conflict end?
Did the ANC push all the white people into the sea?
It ended with truth and reconciliation. It ended with the ANC committed to peaceful transition.
I see zero indication that Hamas will lead Gaza in that direction. They are the polar opposite, becoming more militant and extreme over time, not less.
Who told you that we want to push Jews into the sea? Actually it's Israel who is trying to expell Palestinians once again from their land.
Hamas said that they would drop their arms once Palestinians get a state. If they are lying trust me Palestinians will go against them. Of course they going to get more extreme everytime Israel keep extending illegal settlement and maintain the blockade
It's in the Hamas charter. The organization is literally founded on the ideal that killing all Jews is commanded by Islam:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Can you also condemn Natanyaho use of the amaleks comparison? In the verse about amaleks it was asked for Israelites to kill everybody including infants and animals
Oh I'll happily condemn Netanyahu.
Yes Hamas is extreme and all the leaders should be held accountable once Palestinians are free. It doesn't change the fact that Israel is an occupying force and are currently killing Palestinians regardless if they are Hamas or not and Hamas and other groups are fighting the soldiers who commit those crimes. Unlike you are I don't support some crimes and defend other crimes
That is precisely what I meant by "they’re both wrong".
The difference is one is extreme due to being occupied with no one bringing justice to Palestinians and the other being occupier believing in their eternal right to the whole land. Palestine need to be unconditionally free with a real army which no partition suggestion allowing them to have. So if Hamas don't drop their arms, the Palestinian army would fight them
And Hamas is bringing no justice to Palestinians. Did Hamas invade and take Israelis captive to "bring justice to Palestinians"? Absolutely not, they perfectly well understood what Israel would do in return. That's what they wanted. This is the conflict Israel was propping up Hamas for. Hamas' job was to start the war, and they did.
While the 7 of October what a case of the end don't justify the mean, it is still an act of resistance. An operation can be both an act of resistance and terrorism at the same time. The massacre allowed to ruin the abraham accord which was meant to isolate Palestine from other Arab speaking countries, allow to inflict direct harm to the IDF and revived th debate about Palestinian land being occupied pushing many people to boycott Israelis products and other companies that support Israel and illegal settlements.
We all knew what Israel would do in response. History show us how colonial powers response to any retaliation with huge massacres. It doesn't make them justifiable.
As long as Palestinians exists and Israelis still occupy Palestinians land we will never find peace in the region.
I broadly agree, but the language of the original article is what I objected to:
That language clearly implies that the label "terrorist" is invalid.
EDIT: Just to clarify. We've seen this many times before.
The Muhajadeen who fought so hard to free Aghanistan from the Soviet Union had a just cause, and they were certainly resistance fighters. But they had no interest whatsoever in "freedom" for Afghanistan. They wanted to rule it.
That is the same accusation I am levying against Hamas. They are terrorists, and they are resistance fighters. But they are not freedom fighters. Their goal is to eject Israel and install an Islamist, anti-democratic state.
Then why aren't you calling Israel and the IDF terrorists?
To get out of this whole mess, this is a textbook no true Scotsman argument. The IRA were freedom fighters and also notorious for killing civilians (car bombs anyone?).
Nah, "freedom fighters" do that shit all the time and "no true freedom fighter" is a fallacy. For example, there are huge political rifts between Poland and Ukraine because of "freedom fighters" on both sides committing massacres, assassinations etc. What one side calls heroes, the other calls terrorists. Same thing for freedom fighters in occupied France, Poland.
Edit: also fuck Hamas those terrorist pieces of dung.