this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2023
17 points (90.5% liked)

Ask Lemmygrad

808 readers
12 users here now

A place to ask questions of Lemmygrad's best and brightest

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

While the article and scenario I linked and talk about are very specific I’d like to use this as a learning experience to be better armed when faced with something similar.

So I was scrolling through videos on tiktok responding to this “leftist” creator and one of the responses was from a reactionary guy I’m semi familiar with, familiar in the sense that I’ve seen responses to his nonsense. Anyway I went to check his account because I had never done it before and saw that he was a self identified Libertarian (bad start) and made videos on USSR history.

The latter worried me a lot and one of his most recent videos was titled “the Bolshevik revolution was evil,” and because I have no self preservation I wanted to see what his sources were. Lo and behold, he only cited this article which has some awful content. People in the comments were raving about how amazing his video was and it made me want to do a bit of a deep dive into if any of the “facts” in the article were in any way true. I just don’t know where to start.

Please mind the trigger warning at the beginning of the article as there are very graphic images and descriptions.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

(part two)

Finally, the text, where they quote some actual authors. But not the page or even the book this is from, so basically impossible to verify and get some context. For the extreme claims they make, the burden of proof is on the article authors, not on us.

Anyway, let's look at what exactly they even say:

long quote

In April 1919 Lenin signed a decree to create a concentration camp system copied by the Tsarist Katorga, which in 1916 numbered almost 20,000 inmates, according to figures published by Stephen G. Wheatcroft. The new network of concentration camps was named Glávnoie upravlenie ispravítelno-trudovyj lagueréi i koloni (Directorate-General for Labor Camps). It was the birth of the Gulag, the largest Soviet system of repression. The first of those camps had been established in 1918 at Solovki, on the Solovetsky islands of the Black Sea. Again the figures of the communist dictatorship ended up far exceeding those of tsarism in a short time: at the end of 1920 there were already 84 camps with some 50,000 political prisoners. In October 1923 there were already 315 camps with 70,000 prisoners. Those detained there were used in forced labor as slave labor. The prison population had very high death rates, due to the harsh conditions in these brutal detention centers, where prisoners were often starved or killed by their guardians.

After reading through the loaded language, it seems that they are surprised there are a lot of prisoners in the gulag during the civil war, and that the conditions were harsh. That's all they're really saying. Except, I guess, for this sentence:

The prison population had very high death rates, due to the harsh conditions in these brutal detention centers, where prisoners were often starved or killed by their guardians.

I vaguely remember reading that the gulags did not actually have very high death rates. I don't remember the source, unfortunately. It seems to be a rather popular claim, so if you're doing a debunking for yourself, you might want to try to find some reading on it.

The next two claims are ones where I'm not educated enough to know what actually happened. So, you might also want to research these two events.

long quote

The strikes were also bloodied down. On March 16, 1919, Cheka stormed the Putilov factory, where its workers had gone on strike six days earlier, accusing the Bolshevik government of having become a dictatorship: 900 workers were arrested, and 200 executed without trial. Violent repression, imprisonment, hostage-taking and mass murder were the methods most used by the Bolsheviks to quell these strikes, both in the factories and in the fields. On January 29, 1920, in the face of strikes by workers in the Urals region, Lenin sent a telegram to Vladimir Smirnov encouraging the use of mass murder against strikers: "I am surprised that you take the matter so lightly and do not immediately execute a large number of strikers for the crime of sabotage." These methods were even used to quell the protests of workers when they were forced to work on Sunday, as happened in Tula, a malaise that the Bolsheviks simply attributed to a "counter-revolutionary conspiracy forged by Polish spies." It is estimated that hundreds of thousands of rebel workers and peasants were executed between 1918 and 1922.

long quote

In the late 1920s Lenin approved of the mass murder of 50,000 "white" and civilian prisoners in Crimea, shot or by hanging, in one of the largest massacres of the Russian Civil War. The victims of this crime had surrendered, according to Robert Gellately, after the Bolshevik promise that there would be an amnesty for them if they surrendered.

The Dimitry Pospielovsky guy they cite for the alleged brutality against the priests (paragraph below) seems rather questionable as a source.

long quote

With the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 a systematic religious persecution began which would, throughout the history of the USSR, involve the murder of between 12 and 20 million Christians. In 1914 the Russian Orthodox Church had 55,173 churches, 29,593 chapels, 550 monasteries and 475 convents: the vast majority of them were closed and destroyed by the Communists. Something similar happened with the 5,000 Jewish synagogues and the 25,000 Muslim mosques that were in Russian territory in 1917. Before the Revolution there were also 112,629 priests and deacons and 95,259 monks and nuns of the Orthodox Church. The Communists unleashed brutal persecution against them. According to Yakovlev, some 3,000 priests, religious and nuns were already killed in 1918 alone with methods as brutal as those mentioned above. Many lay people were harassed, tortured, detained and killed. Historian Dimitry V. Pospielovsky reported the Reds' brutality against priests with cases such as the following:

Here's the Russian Wikipedia link for him (English Wikipedia doesn't have much), the guy worked for "Free Russia" and "Radio Svoboda". (Yes, I know Wikipedia is not a credible source, but I doubt they'd lie about the guy's affiliations.) Literal CIA outlets. Can be dismissed out of hand.

The other guy they cite is Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev. Here's his Wikipedia. Maybe less unhinged than literal CIA, but still doesn't exactly seem unbiased. Can't dismiss every single thing he wrote out of hand per se, but considering the fact they don't cite book and page so that we could look at the context and the sources, the burden of proof is still on them.

long quote

If the Okhrana had been characterized by its brutal methods, the communist Cheka exceeded in every way the degree of cruelty of its tsarist predecessor. Among its methods of torture and assassination against political dissidents, Orthodox clerics and others considered enemies by the Bolsheviks, it is worth mentioning savages such as the following, documented by the Russian historian Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev and by the State Archives of the Russian Federation, among others sources:


I hope any of this is helpful to you. At least that would mean that the hours I just spent on commenting on some worthless Spanish conservative site's drivel (notice that one paragraph where they excuse Franco in this very article) were at least somewhat worth it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Wow thank you so much for this, I definitely wasn’t expecting something so thorough! This is incredibly helpful and I hope you’re doing alright as I know how taxing stuff like this can be.