this post was submitted on 30 Sep 2023
544 points (80.8% liked)
Leftism
2056 readers
91 users here now
Our goal is to be the one stop shop for leftism here at lemmy.world! We welcome anyone with beliefs ranging from SocDemocracy to Anarchism to post, discuss, and interact with our community. We are a democratic community, and as such, welcome metaposts that seek to amend the rules through consensus. Post articles, videos, questions, analysis and more. As long as it's leftist, it's welcome here!
Rules:
- Absolutely no fascism, right wing extremism, genocide denial, etc.
- Unconditional support of authoritarians will not be tolerated
- Good faith discussion about ideologies is encouraged, but no sectarianism
- No brocialism/sexism
- No ableism
- No TERFs/ anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric
- No racism
- No trolling
- No insults, dunking, or personal attacks
- No posting of misinformation, disinformation, or fake news
- Mods have final say
Posting Expectations:
- Comics/memes/shitposts/propaganda are only allowed on weekends
- Try to avoid liberalism unless discussing electoral politics. Even then, try to focus on tactical agreement towards leftist goals
- Only one meta post seeking consensus per person per day
- Posts about a particular ideology are ok, but remember the rules above
- Remember that there is no “right way” to implement leftist theory. This rule does not prevent academic criticism.
- Try to avoid extremely sensitive topics unless approaching them with appropriate care for intersectionality. Use your best judgement, and be prepared to provide respectable sources when having these discussions. Wikipedia is not an acceptable source in these cases.
- Post titles must be meaningful and relevant, except on weekends
Sister Communities:
[email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] Solarpunk memes [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected]
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
The state is violent and community is violent and privacy is violent
Can anyone come up with an ideology that is not violent and can actually be implemented in the real world with real actors that aren't smelling roses and giving out hugs?
Side note, any ideology that claims your neighbors are the enemy aren't worth a damn.
What is your criteria for "can actually be implemented in the real world"? This varies by the individual. I need to know what your perspective on this is. Could you explain why capitalism isn't violent?
I think it's important to note that your neighbors might be the enemy... most people are great, some are not.
There will always be antisocial behavior (the basis for what we call crimes), yes. However, that doesn't mean your neighbor is the enemy because they might be one of the few people that do antisocial things.
I disagree. A person who would intentionally cause me or my family harm despite having their needs met is both my enemy and the enemy of a reasonable society.
I understand where you're coming from. But it seems like you're assuming that anyone capable of causing you or your family harm is a threat. What I'm saying is that no one is a threat until proven otherwise.
You misunderstand the hypothetical. All, or nearly all, people are capable but only a few would. My point is that evil exists and to ignore it is a problem. Several people in this discussion have attempted to say that capitalism is the cause of evil. This is obviously untrue. Capitalism can enable evil, but to claim that a different economic system would eliminate evil is ridiculous.
Capitalism exacerbates many things, including crime, violence, and instability. From a leftist perspective, private property is given rights, which artificially increases the amount of crime statistics. If private property were abolished, the only crimes that would occur are between people. It will still happen. But most crime is committed out of desperation to meet their needs.
Seriously? Do you not have the ability to understand hypotheticals?
I understand what you're saying, and disagree. I didn't say that a neighbor can't do antisocial behavior. I'm saying that you should trust your neighbors until they give you a reason not to, because your neighbors are not your enemy.
Are you saying that an antisocial neighbor wouldn't be the enemy?
No.
Oh, well then. I think that's a problem.
What? If a neighbor has antisocial behavior towards you, they are an enemy. But that does not make your other neighbors enemies by default.
Jesus... finally.
A neighbor can be an enemy. Not all of your neighbors are enemies.
So you're telling me that all of this discussion has been a series of misunderstandings? Lmao
I never misunderstood my position. I don't know how else to convey the idea that some neighbors might be enemies.... yes obviously most are fine. We should give everyone the benefit of the doubt... but the economic system doesn't fix the truly demented.
This is due to artificial scarcity. The world is abundant in resources. In an equitable society, people may steal, but when everyone has their needs met, anything else is extra, and surprisingly many may be happy with “enough” or “enough plus a little with storable necessities belonging to everyone.”
This is simply incorrect on so many levels. There are people who will simply not abide by the social structures you are talking about. You are assuming an idolized group of people where there is no evil. Evil doesn't magically disappear without capitalism...
That’s a very disingenuous assertion. I quantified my statement, you are the one assigning absolutes, and unfortunately, absolutes are idolized and probably not realistic any exact sense. Variables exist but not equally, everywhere, always (unless we’re talking about carefully controlled labs, and human error and unforeseen events still happen that may not be immediately apparent.
Wtf seriously?
No I wasted my time to come up with a simple way to describe complex nuances and typed it up on my device for lulz. :-|
My position is that evil exists and that using socialism or communism doesn't fix that... and you say I am being unreasonable. How do we continue the discussion from this point? I'm not even defending capitalism. The implied argument you are making is that capitalism causes evil. I don't agree with that. I don't dispute that capitalism enables evil people to prosper and I think unregulated capitalism encourages evil behavior.
Personally, I think the only reason evil exists is because the world is unfair, some are advantageous and some are not. This causes people to refuse to "play" fairly which causes bad behaviors such as deception, exploitation, murder, etc. The only way to eliminate or reduce evil is to make the world fairer. One of the ways I can think of is for the fortunate to help the unfortunate.
I don't believe this to be true. Fairness only matters to people who value fairness. Many people value fairness, but it is irrational to believe that everyone values fairness. Some, not most or even many, don't care about fairness fundamentally. For these people, interesting fairness does nothing for them. These are the people we need to protect others from while also providing an environment that didn't necessarily mean removing or killing them.
But what causes people to value fairness so little or so much? When I support equality, I don't just mean wealth or resources, but everything, and in this case it's intellect or knowledge. When people have different intellect or knowledge, there is bound to be misunderstanding or miscommunication or other issues. People who have low empathy or are ignorant or dumb to realize how fairness affects people can make things worse. I guess in this case we can make everyone equally smart so no one can deceive and no more misunderstanding. Can't make smart people dumber so I suggest making dumb people smarter which is to give education to those who need it.
You answered it yourself, but I will elaborate.
Humans are different between individuals. Some people are dumb. Some people are mean. Some people are evil. Fundamentally the paradox of tolerance applies to fairness as well.
Except for those deformed by conditioning into abject servility, everyone values fairness at the moment of being unfairly deprived of the means of one's own survival.
Valuation of fairness is a rather robust human trait. In some individuals it may be less pronounced, but as a tendency it is robust, not only among humans, but also among various non-human species.
Members of societies with low levels of inequality generally have more favorable subjective experiences, even those within the cohorts with greater privilege.
Nurturing the vitality of society as a whole, and the health of relations in community, has been a facet of human behavior indispensable for our survival.
Capitalism, in theory and in practice, guides behavior be providing incentives for producing value.
However, REGULATION is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to remove incentives from antisocial things, and incentivize pro social behavior that isn't profitable.
People keep fucking up that second part, and then wonder why corruption is so widespread. Corruption is perfectly predictable. We need to build incentives to reward and promote good behavior.
Edit: corruption exists in every system and it's why things like pure communism and socialism don't work.
I'd actually love to hear more about your perspective. I totally agree with the idea that regulation is required to disincentivize antisocial behavior, but how does that relate to "pure" socialism? What do you mean by that phrase?
"Privacy" is not violent, nor implicated in the discussion. Private property of course is mentioned and is pivotal.
Private property is a social relationship, entrenched as a social construct, and protected by the capacity of the state to inflict violence.
Without violence, neither the state nor private property would continue to exist, because both represent power imbalances, which would not long be respected by the disempowered, except by the invocation of force by the powerful.
Community is not bound in violence as an indispensable feature.
Surely, violence occurs in community, generally as a consequence of conflict that had previously escalated incrementally. Within community, members generally may resolve the root cause of conflict, including by directly addressing imbalances in power. Communities are not characterized by the necessity of violence for them to preserve themselves.
Healthy communities both seek to resolve conflict before any erupts into violence, and seek to contain violence when it emerges.
Any community that is not prevented from doing so by outside powers can achieve such a level of health.
A capitalist society at large cannot prevent violence, because violence is both an inevitable consequence and an indispensable requisite for the overarching conflict within capitalist society, of the irreconcilable and conflicting interests between those who own private property, versus those who must sell their labor to survive.