this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2024
256 points (100.0% liked)
memes
22612 readers
450 users here now
dank memes
Rules:
-
All posts must be memes and follow a general meme setup.
-
No unedited webcomics.
-
Someone saying something funny or cringe on twitter/tumblr/reddit/etc. is not a meme. Post that stuff in [email protected], it's a great comm.
-
Va*sh posting is haram and will be removed.
-
Follow the code of conduct.
-
Tag OC at the end of your title and we'll probably pin it for a while if we see it.
-
Recent reposts might be removed.
-
No anti-natalism memes. See: Eco-fascism Primer
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Question, but how could Hitler to turn east towards the USSR if Poland is in the way? Unless they expected the Poles and Nazis to collaborate? or did they believe he wouldn't invade France and do the USSR next? Is there any evidence of this?
Poland had been collaborating with Nazi Germany.
Granted, the thesis I wrote above came from Said Gafurov’s new book Pledge of Victory, which provided evidence to the compelling argument that the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a last-minute act to foil the German-Polish-Japanese offensive against the USSR. I am very slowly going through the book because my Russian is not good and I need a lot of help with translation etc.
However, what gave me confidence is that Losurdo’s Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend also gave a very similar treatment of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact:
continued:
This all makes sense to me, what I am trying to square is what’s the thinking in Berlin while all this is going on? Why do they make the choices they do? With the benefit of hindsight, why would Hitler ever even consider getting on Britain or France’s bad side? We know Hitler wanted his Lebensraum to the east, it seems like it would be straightforward to just hash that out with the eventual “Allies”?
The best answer I have is, Germany and the US/UK/France ultimately were never on the same page. I think the Allies wanted Germany to invade the USSR, but kind of in the way they want the Ukraine/Russia war in the present to grind on as long as possible. They wanted to use Germany to wear down the USSR. Best case scenario for them is for both Germany and the USSR to essentially destroy each other, so you eventually get two weakened states beholden to western hegemony.
That said, I can’t help but wonder how much the irrationality of fascism comes into play here. And I hate to ascribe irrational motives to anyone, even fascists… I have a hard time with any other explanation for a lot of the diplomatic and foreign policy choices the Nazis made.
Keep in mind the French government was going through a shitload of changes at this time. They collapsed mid-crisis more or less and significant changes occurred. The Germanys couldn't be guaranteed who they would be negotiating with. The British also had internal strife from people like Churchill which made it more difficult at times for Chamberlain to pressure the French.
This is on top of the populations being far and away pro an alliance with the USSR. So Germany can't trust that Britain can fully just control French policy, or at least is not privy to how cucked the French really were to Britain and so worried immensely about the French government's gestures towards the Soviets. Remember things got so far as Romania offering the Soviets their airspace to protect Czechoslovakia. Germany could've been dealing with a real alliance any second now as far as they knew. They picked what is called the phony war over risking that