There Can Be No Energy Transition Without China, Says Siemens Energy CEO : energy

[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

His comments highlight the complexity for firms desperately needing supplies and parts manufactured in China, but not the competition from complete kits made there that undercut Western firms.

We can't afford not to buy parts so other companies can assemble them...

But we also can't allow China to sell complete units because then those middle men companies can't make money...

I'm no climate scientist, but at this point I have no sympathy for energy companies or their profits.

It's insane lots of world leaders say climate change is an important issue, then turn around and tariff or outright ban green energy products from China because they're so cheap everyone would buy them.

Just sounds like corporate welfare where whatever maximizes their profits is necessary, and everything that doesn't gets banned.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

The issue is China is producing things below cost to push out competition. That's not good for anyone but China. They want to be supplier at the expense of everyone else.

That legitimately a good reason to put tariffs in place.

BUT more money should be spent on renewables also.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They already pushed everyone else out years ago. If it was truly the Amazon business model prices would have gone up. If they want to keep subsidizing the transition to clean energy we should take advantage of it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago

Its not that simple. Western money is going to the pockets of Chinese workers when it could be going to the pockets of western workers. The West might not even be taking advantage of it might be that they have been so naive that they have been losing money to China and investing back home could have been the cheaper option and also the option that spread up renewables globally.

It also gives then huge leverage on things like trade and war.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

BUT more money should be spent on renewables also.

If the US had been subsidizing renewable to the same degree as China instead of continuing to subsidize fossil fuels, we wouldn't be in a place to need to protect our renewable industry from their cheaper goods.

As far as I'm concerned, the entire problem is us not spending enough on renewables, not that China has 'undercut' anything

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I mean aren't we a globalized economy? There is stuff made by many countries, of whose quality and or cheapness certain countries cannot completely compete with, see Taiwan and their chip fabs, see Japanese car manufacturers. Are we going to throw a hissy fit over their stuff (yes I know we did with Japan but we don't anymore for whatever reason).

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Unfair competition with the aim to destroy industries in foreign countries which disrupts industries and the workers (obviously), governments and national security. That is what we are speaking about here.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Idk man, I'm not sure what the solution here even is, but there must be a better solution to this problem than complete autarky and or mercantilist-esque policies.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 months ago

Tariffs and carbon tax. (Could also use the carbon tax to directly subsidise green investment).

That would be the free market solution.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Imagine you were starving in the desert for weeks, finally stumble across a McDonald's, but then go "nah, I don't like their business decisions" and walking away...

Climate Change is kind of a big fucking deal

We constantly bail out industries, they can take a short term hit while they learn to compete.

It's better than causing long term damage to our entire fucking planet.

Jesus dude, just listen to yourself:

Short term profits are more important than the survival of intelligent life on Earth.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I didn't say anything if the sort. You're understanding of how things work is wrong.

Imagine this. 10 factories in China that produce renewable goods for the entire world low enough that no other factories in the world can produce anything.

Or 10 factories in China. 10 in US, 10 in Europe. All producing renewables.

What's better for the environment?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Or 10 factories in China. 10 in US, 10 in Europe. All producing renewables.

What’s better for the environment?

If we could magically create the infrastructure from thin air you'd definitely have a point.

But we'd have to wait years, maybe even decades to scale up

We can start that, but we can't wait for it to be started.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Currently there is not enough factories in china to supply the world. More needs to be built. Building them in the west doesn't destroy the ones in China.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So...

You agree with me that we should let people buy Chinese products while we build up our own infrastructure?

I'm just having trouble following you, your comments aren't really consistent

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'm saying there needs to be demand for western products. Tariffs are a good way of doing that.

Africa, Asia and south America can still buy Chinese goods.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

But it's not just tariffs...

BYD electric cars can't even be sold in America...

Because they're not expensive enough.

Solar panels have flipped from banned to tariffs multiple times off the whims of American industries.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago

Don’t you find it hypocritical to criticize support of Israel for committing genocide, while advocating support of China who is committing genocide?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

They’re mad because they’re terrified that, in order to compete without paying slave wages for Chinese labor, they might have to gasp! get paid less to make up the difference! Not smaller profits! Oh, no!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

How did you get that from the article?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

[Christian Bruch's (CEO of Siemens Energy)] comments highlight the complexity for firms desperately needing supplies and parts manufactured in China, but not the competition from complete kits made there that undercut Western firms.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

I understand this to mean: "there are no suppliers for some parts outside of China" rather than "my margins are affected, waaawaa"

Like try and buy clay that hasn't been processed at some point through China, or any piece of machinery that doesn't have a component inside which originates in China. Hell, even try go 24 hours without using a Chinese product.

This is why many countries are looking at re-implimenting protectionism, because we have reached a situation of non-control, regardless of domestic wants.

I don't think I agree with their (Siemens Energy's) stance, without a Long term solution to change the issue, but I understand it's place in the grand scheme.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I read it— but, more importantly, I also know the one thing that China has which constantly allows them to undercut Western manufacturing: cheap labor.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Human Hamster Wheels don't seem very green

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

I mean when we put this guy into it...

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Did he end the comment with one of those Mu-Wahahahahaaaaaa laughs?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

I would like him to find a hole to die in.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

I was hoping by this point China would also aggressively push into the floating offshore wind technology.

But like everything with China it looks like they want the west to build it first then they will steal it and undercut.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

When labor is so cheap you're paying rice for human hamster wheel power generation.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What is he waffling about, chinas renewables are growing faster than any other country

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

If you read the article you will see that it is about importing materials like rare earth metals from China

[–] [email protected] -4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

A good solution to this is for less dependency on them. This is the nature of them taking too much, and that's just... really not going to work out great for them, nor anyone.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

That anybody can disagree with this is truly flabbergasting. China should not be the sole decider of whether our planet lives or dies. I don't... I don't get how anyone, even the Chinese, can disagree with that.

Update: I think it's the petrochemical industry. They've corrupted all the green energy focused subs here super badly from what I've seen so far. I think we've caught their attention already - which may actually be a good sign. We must be doing something effective enough to warrant it.

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