Holy fuck, looking down through, how the hell do you not find these removals reasonable? "Poland forgave the Nazis for genocide, but not the Russians for a bloodless invasion"? A bloodless invasion?! "Poland were the REAL Nazis, the Soviets had to invade them"!? "You're just a racist Nazi Pole"!? What the ever-loving fuck.
I was the guy that was called a nazi pole in that thread. I posted multiple links to counter the "bloodless invasion" bullcrap which they completely ignored to call me a racist nazi. No response to Katyn for instance. Total stonewalling, like they were having their own conversation that didn't include me.
The shills don't want a real debate, they want to frustrate, waste time, and distract you from engagement with a real person or in a more visible comment.
I learned about the Katyn massacre from your comments. Horrifying.
they completely ignored to call me a racist nazi
Yes, I just read the whole thread again, that was completely unnecessary. I guess they just implied that you hated Russians based on your criticism of USSR actions.
Anyone who has a border with Russia hates them...
Russia is never reformed its governance that it has inherited from mongols and we see this reflected in their foreign policy today.
For the sake of this discussion, I went back to the 800 comments thread and found the actual exchange on that topic.
It starts here: https://lemmy.world/comment/10475023
Tl:dr: Polish commenter is upset at banned user for
On the other hand, banned users is upset at the Polish commenter for
Before WW2, Poland was pretty antisemitic. In the 1930s, for instance, youth nationalist movements had advocated for "ghetto benches", so Jews couldn't sit with Poles in university classrooms, following growing violence against Jewish university students. Which given the rising tide of antisemitism in Europe, wasn't exactly shocking, but antisemitism did certainly exist in Polish society. It's certainly different than American university antisemitism of the era, which was limited to quotas (which were sometimes only subtly enforced)--Poland didn't have university quotas at all for several years after WW1, but they returned.
During the war, a great deal of the Holocaust was perpetrated and assisted by local collaborators. However, this was much more common in other countries, like Ukraine and Lithuania, than in Poland.
And after the war, there were incidents of antisemitic violence among Poles. The most famous is the Kielce Pogrom. These effectively ensured that survivors would not return, barring any chance at a revival of Jewish life in Eastern Europe post-war.
On this subject, I would highly recommend Antony Polonsky's My Brother's Keeper: Recent Polish Debates on the Holocaust, which is a discussion of essays/articles/etc which were written in the 80s when a flurry of debates/discussions on this subject in Poland occurred.
Denying that millions of Soviet soldiers died during WW2 to fight Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_World_War_II#Soviet_push_to_Germany)
On the accusation of the Polish commenter being racist against Russians, that seems like an exaggeration from the banned user.
Reading the whole thread again, there doesn't seem to be much "harassment" as stated in the modlog, as much as a heated debate between the two parties.
From a lemmy.ml user perspective (which I'm not), I could see why they would complain about a political bias against the USSR.
One potential improvement point might be for mods to add historical sources to why they consider a comment misinformation. Also, banning this type of users and removing those comments (and leaving the others) might lead to an echo chamber effect on lemmy.world (mirroring the one on lemmy.ml).
Thanks for your even handed analysis btw. I think this analysis seems fair.
it should be noted that these bans are community bans, not instance bans. your title makes it look like people are getting instance banned from lemmy.world, while the examples you've shown are about community bans.
if i'm not mistaken, several/most of the lemmy.ml bans/ban complaints have been about instance bans, which affect all communities on the instance.
Oh good point, if these are just community bans than I don't see a major issue here that threatens Lemmy itself.
Very good point, I just edited.
Sorry mate, I'm with @[email protected] on this. There's no benefit in platforming misinformation.
It's fine!
I really see where they come from, and why they prefer a strong moderation on this kind of topics. I guess it starts to get blurry once you have to define what is misinformation. Historical accuracy is hard to achieve (this is why I still go to /r/AskHistorians, and I linked a few threads in the other comments).
I saw some time ago a graph showing how the perception of the USSR changed a lot in Europe during the Cold War compared to just after WW2.
The following statements might be all true at the same time
Sometimes I'm wondering if those three statements can be compiled in a single comment and not instantly start a comment war with everyone trying to push their own agenda, and mods having to interfere following their own views.
"Mao and Stalin did nothing wrong and if they did, the undesirables deserved it.
The West is a disgusting generacy oppressing the working people"
Banged out a tankie from while enjoying his soy latte in Brooklyn coffee shop. Dreaming to escaping to the socialist Paradise and leaving the shit hole behind.
Banged out a ~~tankie~~Kremlin shill from while enjoying his ~~soy latte~~ borscht in ~~Brooklyn coffee shop~~ St Petersburg.
nb4 someone says "both sides"
The following statements might be all true at the same time
- USSR committed imperialist massacres
- USA committed imperialist massacres
- most of the Western European nations committed imperialist massacres
No one's refuting that 'both sides' logic. But if
Then we're all bad house guests, but Ivan's a complete asshole.
Worth thinking about what all these have in common, no? (Hint: they are all nation states).
Nahh fuck you... My nation state is better and strong! It will kick your nation state's ass!
My nation state never did nothing mate!!!
Anyone characterizing the Soviet invasion of Poland as “bloodless” deserves to have their bullshit posts nuked
If you spread lies like USSR never working with the Nazis then I don't care if you are banned from planet earth. It's a heinous lie that tries to ignore undisputed facts. The Soviets were brutal killers that only joined the allies cause their partner in crime turned on them. All those bans were reasonable. Blocking .ml is the right choice.
I don't know what thread you're talking about, but rather than pointing broadly to the modlog, why not point out some specific examples. "Banned for misinformation" isn't very helpful without knowing what that alleged misinformation is. If it's genuinely spreading lies, that's very different from if it doesn't match someone's political ideology.
This problem has an easy answer. Join a smaller instance.
We came here to find a decentralized network. We can access all of it from anywhere. Even mastodon can comment on lemmy posts. There is no need to centralize to the biggest servers.
Preach to the choir.
Fair.
I just took a peek and .world has a more than triple the user count as any other. I dont know how to fix it but i worry for the future with so many communities relying on it.
We are trying to fix this with a few communities:
This community ([email protected] ) actually has a topic about it, feel free to have a look: https://sopuli.xyz/post/11972110
Thank you for your service!
And you point is? Should they not ban people for spreading blatant lies?
One example of comment removal that caught my eye:
They can’t engage with any topics or offer counter arguments. Every response is: Calling people fascists, insulting and using ad hominems is lemmy.world's thing. The comment section to this is mind-blowing, really. All the things of which users of lemmy.world are accusing other instances, is exactly what your instance is doing. And you don't even see the hypocrisy...
Reason: Misinformation
ban difference of thoughts, opinions, and beliefs That's exactly what lemmy.world is doing.
Reason: Misinformation
Not being able to criticize an instance on that instance seems counterproductive to me. You are convincing people that they are right claiming you apply censorship as they are being censored.
One ban example that caught my eye:
The whole "USSR allied with the Nazis" thing is actually Nazi propaganda and historical evidence proves this repeatedly. Before the war started, Stalin offered to send 1 million soldiers preemptively to England and France, together with artillery and aviation, if they agreed to a mutual defense agreement against Nazis. The soviet union wasn't prepared industrially for a war like that, again as proven by the 20+ million deaths in the war, and wanted to postpone it as much as possible, and join the allies as soon as it started, but France and England were too eager to see communism destroyed and didn't care about mutual defense, especially England. The fact that the Soviet Union later invaded some countries to the east of Germany was in preparation for war, to prevent Nazism from rising in these places and the military there allying with Hitler, as Finland did for example (there were plenty of Finns sieging Leningrad). Equating Nazism and the USSR is a revisionist, fascist talking point based on purposeful misinterpretation of some data like the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and outright omission of other data such as the attempted Collective Security policy attempted by the USSR since the early 30s to protect Europe from fascism, that England and France conveniently didn't agree to since nazis and fascists were enemies of communism as they were.
Reason: Misinformation / Harassment
That user was later banned.
This comment has a source (The Telegraph, might not be the best, but still). Seems more interesting to keep the comment, show them why they are wrong, so that people reading the whole conversation can see which side is more reasonable, than removing the comment and banning the user altogether.
"We should platform misinformation so we can present both sides"
Fucking what.
Apologia for the USSR's cooperation with the literal fucking Nazis is next level, and that's the example that jumps out for you?
The first two are sweeping generalizations that are like that simply not true and only serve to attack the work of the moderators. If you want to critizise something you need concrete examples.
The last one... the historical accuracy is debatable, but was it even posted on a thread that discussed pre-ww2 history? Usually such cut&paste comments are made to derail justified complaints regarding ML propaganda about recent events.
The first two are sweeping generalizations that are like that simply not true and only serve to attack the work of the moderators. If you want to critizise something you need concrete examples.
Ironically, the moderators created those examples themselves by removing those comments.
The last one… the historical accuracy is debatable, but was it even posted on a thread that discussed pre-ww2 history?
It was not, but as you know, the lemmy.ml moderation discussion always brings up political questions.
Usually such cut&paste comments are made to derail justified complaints regarding ML propaganda about recent events.
Indeed. The fact that lemmy.ml bans people about mentioning Tienanmen is still crazy. But that should probably not be a justification for lemmy.world moderators to remove any debatable historical thesis and ban users for that, especially on a community dedicated to the fediverse.
But that should probably not be a justification for lemmy.world moderators to remove any debatable historical thesis and ban users for that, especially on a community dedicated to the fediverse.
Jesus fucking Christ, the users in question are outright denying massacres, a matter of historical fact not seriously questioned by mainstream academia, performed by a totalitarian state in WW2 on a civilian population, but it's okay because the totalitarian state isn't Nazi Germany? It's just a 'debatable historical thesis'?
This is fucked, and it's extremely strange that you don't see that.
The debatable part is that the USSR might have considered it a valid tactic to buy time, which is the main thesis of the specific post quoted above. I think it is a postwar rationalisation and Stalin had no qualms about working with Hitler, but that is also debatable.
What however isn't debatable is that community moderators can and should remove comments that are only made to derail discussions.
I 100% agree with removing the historical revisionism.
I don't quite agree with banning the first two comments. But I do agree they are misinformation. Unless we can surface mod logs about historical facts the mods/instance admins don't like getting people banned from .world?
I'm with you on choosing a smaller instance, though. I moved to .world after I mistakenly had an account on .ml, so I was still pretty new to Lemmy.
This gets back to the original point made in that thread: I chose to move because I had been banned for I don't even know what. Meanwhile the other person was expressing that any amount of collateral damage to minorities is justified as long as he can see white "crackers" suffer and be killed under a Trump authoritarian government.
Those mods are… special.
I wouldn’t care if other instances just blocked them outright. It would suck for those who are registered there, but to me, it’s no different from defederating from Nazi apologists.
Based on this, I would almost suggest creating a third "Fediverse" community, be it on lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works or reddthat.com, communities known for honest admins, and with a group of mods that could be trusted.
However, I guess finding people wanting to mod that kind of place would be very difficult based on this kind of threads.
I think we should differentiate between community bans and instance bans. Every instance may have inconsistent community mods.
I would expect a high threshold for cornerstone instance level bans.
To discuss how to grow and manage communities / magazines on Lemmy, Mbin, Piefed and Sublinks