this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024
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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Ä, ö, ü, am i a joke to you?

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Have you ever seen transcribed Georgian?

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 day ago

This is outrageous! I will call all users of our Polish instance "SZMER" to... OK, I might be getting your point.

[–] [email protected] 53 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Hungarian and Finnish have entered the chat

[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 days ago (3 children)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago

drinks your einstock

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

Lithuanian: Palaikyk mano alų.

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (7 children)

The orthography is OK. It spams ⟨z⟩ for the same reason why Romance and Germanic languages spam ⟨h⟩ - too few letters, too many sounds, got to use digraphs.

The phonetic and phonemic part is like your typical European language. As in, "WE NEED A NEW SOUND! OTHERWISE WE CAN'T REPRESENT THE KITCHEN SINK DRIPPING!!!!"

The morphology is complicated, but the alternative is to make the syntax become a hellish mess. Like Mandarin or English. Language is complicated, no matter which one.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Then there's Italian. We have less letters than other European languages (we don't have k,j,w,x,y) and we still manage to avoid shit like "thoroughly" or spamming letters. We have accents, but use them way less than in Spanish and no special accents or characters like ñ ç č ß å ø ö etc

Once you understand the rules is probably one of the easier languages to spell and pronounce

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

Italian is the exception that proves the rule. The orthography is well-designed (transparent, without too much fluff), but not even then it could avoid ⟨ch gh⟩ for /k g/ before ⟨e i⟩, so it could reserve ⟨c(i) g(i)⟩ for /tʃ dʒ/.

It's all related: modern European languages typically have a lot more sounds than Latin did, so Latin itself never developed letters for them. Across the Middle Ages you saw a bunch of local solutions for that, like:

  • Italian - refer to the etymology to pick a digraph, then solve the /k tʃ g dʒ/ mess with ⟨h⟩.
  • Occitan - spam ⟨h⟩ everywhere. (Portuguese borrowed from it.)
  • English - spam ⟨h⟩ too.
  • Hungarian - spam ⟨y⟩ instead.
  • Polish - spam ⟨z⟩, plus a few acute accents (Polish has the retroflex series to handle too, not just the palatal/palato-alveolar like the four above)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Germanic languages spam ⟨h⟩

? English? German has way less h. Ok, more ch, but that's for different reasons, same reasons as ck.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Just come up with new letters, Lithuanian has 9 (ą, ę, ė, į, ų, ū, č, š, ž) extra letters. If a small language can do it, so can English.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 days ago (1 children)

the alternative is to make the syntax become a hellish mess

The alternative is Czech.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 day ago (1 children)

A Polish colleague of mine once accidentally picked Czech in an online work training exercise and then spent the next 30 minutes giggling to himself. I asked him afterwards what was up "Czech sounds like baby talk"

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

So I've heard. The feeling is mutual, oddly enough.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

the alternative is to make the syntax become a hellish mess. Like Mandarin or English.

Now hang on just a second. English is fine. You just have to memorize or correctly guess the etymology of whatever word it is you're trying to spell/pronounce in order to get ... oh, okay, I think I see the problem now.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (4 children)

Ah, what you're saying is spelling. Syntax is word order, obligatory words, stuff like this. English syntax is a maze, or how programmers would call it, spaghetti code.

For example, here's how to ask a yes/no question in...

  • Latin - attach -ne after the relevant word. (Note: Latin has no word for "yes", but still has this sort of question.)
  • Spanish - why bother? Intonation is enough.
  • Polish - start the sentence with "czy".
  • German - shift the verb to the start of the sentence (first position).
  • English - if the verb belongs to a small list of exceptions, do it as in German. However most verbs refuse this movement to the first position, so for those you need to spawn a dummy support "do", then let it steal the conjugation from the leftmost verb, and then shift that "do" instead. Noting that semantic "do" also refuses the movement, so it still requires a support "do", yielding questions like "did you do this?"

Then there's the adjective order. In Latin for example it's just a "...near the noun? Whatever, just don't be ambiguous." Polish is probably like Latin in this. English though? Quantity or number, then quality or opinion, then size, then age, then shape, then colour, then material or place of origin, then purpose or qualifier, then the noun. And don't you dare to switch them - "your famous blue raincoat" is a-OK, but *"your blue famous raincoat" makes you sound like a maniac.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

In Latin for example it’s just a “…near the noun? Whatever, just don’t be ambiguous."

It doesn't need to be remotely close to the noun lol

Though Latin syntax can get annoying sometimes (when do I use the subjunctive? What's the correct negation? Perfect or imperfect… maybe pluperfect? Which noun is this random genitive modifying?), it does make sense eventually. I guess that is also true for English, but I still mess up the tenses sometimes.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

English syntax hard?

There's a lot of issues with English. Most of them are for using loanwords without phonetically changing how they're spoken in the English alphabet. Then people wonder why they're spelled like Ledoux and sound like Lehdoo.

Romance. Romance languages are the fucking reason you word slurring tongue twats.

But hey, at least we're not Turkik.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

English syntax hard?

Yes, it is. It has 9001 rules for the allowed order of the words, 350 for each, and you have lots of those small words with grammatical purpose that don't really convey anything, but must be there otherwise your sentence sounds broken. Refer to my examples with yes/no questions and *blue famous raincoat (instead of "famous blue raincoat").

That happens because any language is complex, there's no way around. You can dump that complexity in the word order, like English does, or dump it in different word forms, like Polish; but you won't be able to get rid of it.

There’s a lot of issues with English. Most of them are for using loanwords without phonetically changing how they’re spoken in the English alphabet.

That's something else, the spelling. It's a fair point when it comes to contrast with Polish though - sure, the ⟨z⟩ might look odd, but it is consistent, most of the time you can correctly predict how you're supposed to pronounce a word in Polish.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago

English syntax hard?

Yes. Sequence of tenses. It's harder than Latin. As in, what the hell does "future-in-the-past" mean?
Or tenses (+aspect+mood) in general, I guess. You guys have too many of them.

As for the orthography, you know what is to blame. The Great Vowel Shift.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Syntax is for nerds. I prefer a vibes based language.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (4 children)

Bezwzględny Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz wyruszył ze Szczebrzeszyna przez Szymankowszczyznę do Pszczyny. I choć nieraz zalewała go żółć, niepomny następstw znalazł ostatecznie szczęście w źdźble trawy.

EDIT: copy/pasted from somewhere, this looks incredible to pronounce! The only polish word I know is kurwa, and Zubrowka.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The only polish word I know is kurwa, and Zubrowka.

You're right, you know just one word in Polish, because it's Żubrówka you filthy peasant.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago

Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiwicz is a popular joke name. Plausible sounding, but, to my surprise, not registered to actually exist. Yet to close to my real name for me to find the video link all that funny, rather than a common expirience even with other Poles.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It may look hard, but those are more of a spelling nightmare than pronounciation ones

Hard ones to pronounce are for example: "Chrząszcz brzmi w trzczcinie w szczebrzeszynie" or "stół z powyłamywanymi nogami"

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah, Welsh is even more special ...

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago

It's actually not. The Basque language has zero relationship to any other language in existence. It's totally unique.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I feel like we'd all be much more on board with this if Poland wasn't in the shadow of Hungary right next door looking like somebody's cat had a serious episode on top of a keyboard.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Did Hungary annex Slovakia again or what?

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 days ago (2 children)
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[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 days ago (13 children)

It's not spelling, it's the grammar and ortography that would make you want to peel your skin off.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 days ago (8 children)

I wonder if we had ž etc like Czechs would it make it easier for foreigners to read

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Fun fact: The Czech adopted š, č and ž to look less German. The Lithuanians adopted it to look less Polish.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Based Jan Hus. Sparking religious wars and linguistic reforms.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago

That happened hundreds of years after Hus.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

It would certainly make Polish easier to read for Czechs. Not sure about other foreigners, šžčřě might be just as alien.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 days ago

Took 2 years of Polish at University. I spent more time on that one class than all my other classes combined... And I went to school for Education.

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