this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2024

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374

these folks sure are quiet these days (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

submitted 9 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

142 comments fedilink hide all child comments

i can't even guess as to why they went quiet. not one guess at all. we will never know.

edit: well they're not quiet now once they get called out

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

It's so weird. Gaza is extremely important and deserving of the attention. It's genocide, and it's horrific. But is no one else important? Because we can't save Gaza immediately, it's really better to set outselevs on fire so we can burn together? Like, real talk, Harris will be fine. Biden will be fine. It's our friends and neighbors who are going to be deported, harassed, laid off, homeless and scared for a minimum of four years.

I wouldn't say they're gone though. I've been down voted, told "my kind/type" are all talk, or that I'm okay with murder, I voted for genocide, the usual. But I couldn't sit and do nothing.

But I guess this is what they wanted. The dems have been taught a lesson, we're moving headfirst into a dictatorship, and Gaza is no safer, but their conscious is clear, somehow.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 3 hours ago (4 children)

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they are Isreali or Russian psy ops accounts (or at least useful idiots that have bought the psy ops).

When the war started, Lemmy was overrun by the "criticism of Isreal is antisemetic" accounts. That was rejected pretty hard. Those guys disappeared, and the "never genocide" people took their place.

It almost seems like a change in tactics to achieve the same goal.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 hours ago

the “criticism of Israel is antisemitism” accounts are gone because they were banned. Zionism and the insistence that a genocidal state is indivisible from an entire ethnic group is racism, and against most instance’s TOS.

“never genocide” content does not break TOS and so has lasted since october 7th through today. to the uninformed eye this dynamic might look like a change in tactic but really it’s just two different groups, one which got banned after a few days or weeks and one which did not.

just correcting your “change in tactics”/“it’s astroturfing” narrative. i don’t think it holds up in comparison to a much more likely explanation, and i might even use the word ludicrous to describe your argument unless you can provide further evidence.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 hour ago (3 children)

Considering the fediverse's low market share compared to non-federated alternatives, I'd be suprised if any malicious actors waste time and money running a psyops here. Like, you reach more people on Reddit for the same ammount of effort.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 hour ago

You'd reach more people on bigger platforms, but it is easier to steer the conversation with smaller groups. So I don't think its totally clear-cut where the best psyops targets would be.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago

thank you for saying this skskkssk. Occam’s razor: is it more likely that foreign psy-ops have incredibly poor cost-benefit analysis skills (while excelling in everything else), or that a couple dozen people have deeply held beliefs that led them to be vocal in the midst of tragedy?

call me crazy but the latter narrative makes a lot fewer assumptions.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Oh, don't worry, the conspiracy theory is capable of making sense of any incongruities like that, just like OP can explain away the fact that we didn't actually disappear as predicted. You see, this is where the Russian bots practice their techniques and try out different lines before deploying them on a larger scale.

It's not based on evidence or reason so the believers will never be convinced based on evidence or reason, same as any other conspiracy theory.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (1 children)

It was 100% astroturfing, 20% people falling for bullshit. Sounds like politics

[–] [email protected] 1 points 16 minutes ago

15% concentrated power of shill.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 hours ago

Absolutely! There is no doubt. Such fallacies is what they do. Mostly they go with "they are all the same", then take an absolute approach attack on the principles of the left(er) political party.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

Out of curiosity, what wouldn't you be willing to compromise on? If I had a party wanting to kill your mom and dad and another who just wants to kill your dad, would you make that compromise?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 17 minutes ago

Ummm....yes! Of course I would make that compromise! If I have a choice between they both die or one dies, of course I'm taking the choice where one lives!

What wouldn't I be willing to compromise on? Nothing. If I have a choice between bad and worse, I'm taking bad, what kind of lunatic would intentionally choose worse?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 27 minutes ago* (last edited 24 minutes ago)

Good comment, because this was the choice some were asked to make, to degrees ranging from similar to almost literally.

As an educated citizen I openly acknowledge voter abstention or voting Republican is irresponsible in carrying out my responsibility to protect my neighbor.

However I also recognize the incredibly painful and emotionally choking situation some were put in, with no messaging of empathy from either side. I will never blame those people more than I blame the party which failed them. Distribute it 51%/49% even, I don’t care. I’m just sick of the finger pointing and shit slinging against a tiny minority who bore no impact on the election outcome in the first place.

This dialogue, which OP is capitulating to, is perfect fascist propaganda. Find an insignificantly tiny out group, which conveniently happens to be majority Arab-American, and blame them for the violence while corporate interests and ever more racist border politics go unspoken.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (4 children)

Real Talk, I'm getting real tired of everyone from the vaguely right of center to the farthest reaches of the left getting involved in this shit slinging blame game.

I legit don't care anymore who you voted for (edit: so long as it wasn't Trump I mean. But even then, time to start your redemption arc if you did). We are past the election and now all share the same immediate issues.

Folks who abstained from voting (or voted 3rd party) because you couldn't stomach the lesser of two evils, good news, that choice is gone. You can stop parroting the idea that anyone who voted Blue did so "in support of genocide". It should be clear by now those who voted Blue really were just doing their best in a bad situation, they are not your enemies.

Folks who voted Blue because you believe supporting the lesser evil is in service of the greater good. Good news, that burden is also gone. You can stop parroting the idea that someone who can't stomach voting for people who would play politics with genocide is really just a tankie or a bot. Not every one is willing to play game theory with people's lives, that doesn't mean they are your enemies.

Anyone who truly wants to push for solidarity and human rights for all is an ally of mine. And I propose we bury the hatchet, preferably in the objectives of fascists, before its too late.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 minutes ago

On this platform specifically we've had months of smug people claiming to make the moral choice of directly or indirectly supporting the clearly worse choice. It's far too early to just let that slide.

If we in 100 years still sometimes talk about the early days of the fediverse where a bunch of morons fell for astroturfing, that's kind of a good outcome.

If they're real people they should feel bad.

For the not so real people, we should figure out how a distibuted system can deal with a concerted astroturfing operation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 hours ago

They're easy targets. Blame the abstainers and third party voters and you don't have to confront the legitimate failures of your party and campaign.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 hours ago

I think it is important to point out the failings of others. Otherwise they may not connect the dots and learn from their mistakes.

Sometimes a mistake is innocent, say you forgot to zip up your fly. It’s important to know you forgot to do so as it could be very socially embarrassing.

Sometimes one could accidentally cut someone off in traffic because they didn’t see them. A good honk notifies them of their mistake and will hopefully drive home the fact that they probably need to pay better attention to traffic.

Pointing out that abstaining and or choosing not to vote enabled the election of the greater of two evils is equally important.

Rock on OP. Never let them forget!

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

I'd rather keep up the blame game, ngl. Arguments didn't work on the disingenuous pricks who helped get us here. I don't care if they personally made a difference or not, I care that they were utterly unreasonable, and the change in circumstances won't change that.

Speaking to anyone who could've voted for Kamala but didn't: I don't care about solidarity anymore; you didn't have solidarity with us when we needed you. Y'all are fucking stupid and I don't want to deal with that. I realize that's not the moral choice, but RN for the first time in over a decade I don't care about that. I'm angry. Maybe in a few more days or weeks or months that will change, maybe not. Right now I'm focusing on making sure all my remaining friends are able to get somewhere safe if the need arises and keep hope kindled in their hearts. Maybe that means other people who need my help more will suffer, die, or fall victim to their own despair, but I just don't have the wherewithal to make that my priority.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 hours ago

The Democratic party or a campaign can't fail, they can only be failed, right OP?

[–] [email protected] 37 points 6 hours ago (4 children)

They voted for a worse genocide.

In 2 different places no less and possibly more.

They just don't know it yet.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Last I checked Trump lost 3 million voters since last election, and Harris lost 10 million.

The couch won. It's not like people were suddenly won over by a person they've likely seen through 3 election cycles.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 minutes ago

Right, which is why people are angry at the people who couldn't even go vote for Harris

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 hours ago

You forgot at home, where the marginalized groups are also gonna feel the brunt of turnips policies.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 5 hours ago (2 children)

Dems failed and people who abhor genocide unfortunately had little to do with it, though listening to Lemmy libs you'd think they personally destroyed her campaign

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

I have been seeing this online, leftist, superposition where people not voting Democrat, to protest the genocide, are not a significant enough portion of the vote, to have tanked the election for the DNC, and that enough of the 15 million who sat out clearly did so due to the genocide, to make them lose. I have seen it argued both ways from a number of the same people, in different threads, when the messaging behind either, works in their favor. No these people are not russian bots, they have been around lemmy, doing normal poster stuff, for a while now. They just want to not take any blame, and also claim their issue was far more universally important than it was.

"My vote for Jill Stein/My non vote for protest/etc. isn't what killed her chance, it was people being mad about other things the DNC didn't do well!" Then, on another post, seeing the same user name, "15 million people wouldn't have sat out had they stopped supporting Israel!"

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

people not voting Democrat, to protest the genocide, are not a significant enough portion of the vote, to have tanked the election for the DNC

a) yeah people are saying this.

enough of the 15 million who sat out clearly did so due to the genocide

b) no one is saying this except people who are so misinformed that they would deny a) anyway. you’re attributing the words of two separate groups of people to everyone in that group.

edit: sorry for the false assertion, corrected

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

@kameecoding English6•

My favorite lemmy bubble is the smug woke ( idiot leftists, who think they are smart but aren’t) who think Kamala lost because she didn’t take a stance on Gaza and people abstained in protest and not because of sexism and racism.

and to this is the direct reply

@SeattleRain English2•

That is why she lost to though. 15 million blank ballots don’t lie.

There are more people in that thread saying this in various different ways, and this is just the most recent one in my post history.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

yikes ok thanks for the correction. didn’t know people were that poorly informed.

i’ll see what i can do to correct my comment in an edit, it’s obvious the user you quoted is way off base in saying the B portion of my comment. not sure if they would also say the A portion though.

edit: for anyone curious, the “15 million” that user refers to is a purported number of democrats that didn’t show up to vote. and so has nothing to do with “blank ballots.” plus that number isn’t even real apparently and it’s less, see that fact check link for more.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

It's cool, I see this a lot lately. Yeah, I am not siding with commenter one, this example was just the first in my history. No offense to you, I don't really think this conversation is worth more work than that. I have a number of examples hidden in there though, also consider I didn't bother commenting most of the times I saw this type of thing.

Personally, while I listen to people, and can't but accept bigotry as part of the issue, it isn't THE issue. However, people like Seattle here, seem to be in a bubble. My personal friends care about this, I do, it is common in most of the online spaces I am in, but when I get out into an unfiltered space, it becomes clear gaza isn't a consideration, or is so far down the list, it might as well not be.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Personally, while I listen to people, and can’t but accept bigotry as part of the issue, it isn’t THE issue.

Agree. I heard Hasanabi frame it as, the US is certainly sexist and racist, yes, but those hurdles could have been overcome (as with Obama) by employing messaging that is appealing to the majority public who feel alienated from their labor and neighbors. And that did not happen, not nearly enough or comparably to Obama, and so racism and sexism won out.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Yes, much of the labor here voted trump due to blindly reaching out to someone they thought was a political outsider. Now they are furious that their compensation is going to be cut, and their union (this is largely manufacturing) can't do anything, because their company can materially prove major losses in profit margins. Even the top brass, in a number of these companies, are having their contracts re-negotiated to reduce their compensation. Locally, they voted more progressive than in decades, because they saw those people as outsiders too. This goes right along with what AOC, and Bernie, are saying about people who voted for both them and trump.

Much of the people, who voted biden, and then sat this out, are older white men. People seem to think just mentioning this means you are saying it was all hate due to woman of color. However, I also see the concerns of this demographic are way different than those who would be seriously concerned about palestine. Here people are saying things akin to "the destruction of our palestine (the train wreck that poisoned palestine OH) was just a news cycle, the one on the other side of the world has been on the news for months."

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