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Judge compares gender-affirming care to cigarettes & beer while upholding youth ban (www.lgbtqnation.com)

submitted 4 weeks ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

37 comments fedilink hide all child comments

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[–] [email protected] 64 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

This a wealth of studies showing cigarettes and beer negatively affect your health, while gender affirming cares improves and extends it. These are not even remotely comparable.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

Gender affirming surgeries have a lower regret rate than Harry Potter tattoos

I imagine gender affirming care as a whole is even lower (since not everyone wants surgery)

[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Can confirm anecdotally. Have a Harry Potter tattoo from when I was 18, am trans. Only one of them I regret and it’s not transitioning.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Out of curiosity how bad we talking here? Like are we talking deathly hallows symbol, or Dobby.Goatse.Cx?

Edit: for fucks sake it made a link, I am not touching that thing. Click at thine own perril.

[+] [email protected] -9 points 4 weeks ago (5 children)

What I seriously can't estimate is, how persistent is gender identification in youths?

I mean, children and teenagers are generally idiots (I certainly was). As far as I know, there's no physiological test to determine trans identity, so an outside observer has a really hard time distinguishing real and "fake" trans identity. I'm not even talking about willful deceit, but just the general instability of kids.

So, I can understand that people are hesitant to allow gender affirming care, because they fear they might do more harm than good. Especially if you're somewhat older, all those trans issues must seem like a new trend, I certainly didn't hear much about them 10 years ago. Unless there's something like a proper scientific guideline, all judges and doctors are basically forced to judge themselves and will probably stick to the "old ways".

As always: further research is needed.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children)

As always: further research is needed.

You sound well meaning but uniformed. Sure more research is always good but this is already a very well understood field and I have ample sources to prove it.

I can understand that people are hesitant to allow gender affirming care, because they fear they might do more harm than good.

First off, there is absolutely zero surgeries being performed on minors. This is not happening. What is happening is puberty blockers and hormone replacement therapy, both of which are non-permanent. And once someone becomes an adult and begins more permanent affirming care, the rate of people experiencing regret is laughably low.

A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1%.

all those trans issues must seem like a new trend, I certainly didn't hear much about them 10 years ago

I think you need to understand your personal limitations. Because it's really not new, I mean I can point to ancient history with people like Empress Elagabalus, but if we just want to talk about modern medical transition there is Dr. Alan Hart in 1917 or Christine Jorgensen in 1952 a WW2 vet that made national headlines. The diagonosis of gender dysphoria has existed in the DSM since 1980. Trans identity or medical transitions is very far from a new concept.

Unless there's something like a proper scientific guideline,

Every major field of related medicine abundantly agrees that this is safe and necessary treatment. Such as American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medical Association and American Psychiatric Association.

There are already numerous safeguards, such as to receive any gender affirming care (which is only ever provided to adults) requires multiple years on reversible Hormones and then letters of support form two separate psychiatrists.

Weather or not a doctor is allowed to prescribe proven treatments to a patient suffering from a preventable, manageable and curable condition is NOT something that a judge needs to determine. It exclusively is the purview of a patient and a doctor, not the law.

As a trans person myself, I need you to understand that reticence by the cis population is dangerous for the trans population. So while I can understand why it sounds extreme to you, that should only be a reason for you personally not to seek this sort of care. Not a reason for you to support roadblocks against the advice from medical professionals.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

Thanks for all the info. Can you explain how hormone treatment for children would be non-permanent? I'd think that adding or substracting hormones, like say growth hormones, would always leave traces throughout ones further life

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Because they temporarily block the onset of puberty, not permanently block it. Any effects are mostly reversible if the individual desires. What isn't reversible are the all too frequent side effects of untreated dysphoria: death.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 4 weeks ago

Thanks. But I see another disclaimer with 'mostly reversible'... For children I think there would be a lot less opposition if it was only requested for fully reversible treatments.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 weeks ago

They give youth hormone blockers to delay puberty. This gives them time to figure out if transitioning is really right for them without have their body modified by puberty. You can stay on puberty blockers until your mid 20's pretty easily.

[+] [email protected] -8 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

Read your sources again.

The first study is about adults, not children. The pediatrics talk about banning care all together. Both address exactly not my point.

First off, there is absolutely zero surgeries being performed on minors. This is not happening. What is happening is puberty blockers and hormone replacement therapy, both of which are non-permanent

I never implied surgery. And "non-permanent" is a euphemism. Blocking puberty for years can lead to permanent problems - like infertility.

Actually, your entire comment kind of proves my point: there isn't research about how kids think and care ten years later.

As a trans person myself, I need you to understand that reticence by the cis population is dangerous for the trans population

And you need to understand, that finding out, whether a kid is part of that population is exactly the hard part.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

And you need to understand, that finding out, whether a kid is part of that population is exactly the hard part.

I don't think you fully appreciate the stigma and roadblocks associated with being trans. This isn't something people do on a whim and the data supports it. They are part of my community when they say they are.

The children that have self advocated enough to persistently ask enough for medical transition deserve the opportunity to do so. Like truly, think of the position you would be putting them in.

individuals were 60% less likely to experience depression (aOR, 0.40; 95% CI, 0.17-0.95) and 73% less likely to experience suicidality (aOR, 0.27; 95% CI, 0.11-0.65) when compared to youths who did not received gender-affirming interventions.

Blocking anyone from getting the care they say they need is reckless. It's not yours or the laws place to put up roadblocks to deny them that opportunity. It's not protecting kids but quite the opposite, it simply raises the risk of self harm.

there isn't research about how kids think and care ten years later.

The metric of 10 years is a high bar, but the data does exist.

220 youths who had accessed puberty blockers or hormones were detailed by the youth and/or their parents as part of an ongoing decade-long study of transgender youth. At a mean of 4.86 years after beginning blockers and 3.40 years after beginning hormones, they reported very high levels of satisfaction and low levels of regret; the overwhelming majority (97%) continued to access gender-affirming medical care.
When the researchers asked more about these regrets, she says, “often the regrets they were expressing had to do with [wishing] they hadn't done blockers and they'd gone straight to hormones, or they maybe had a negative side effect related to the blockers.” For instance, having an implant that got irritated.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

these “well intentioned but just asking questions” commenters just make me sad :( there are so. many. dangerous medical procedures with higher regret rates out there that no one logs on to the internet to yap about government regulation. why? because medical boards are fucking smart and operating under the railguards of malpractice law. believe it or not, the doctors also care about the wellbeing of your child.

i mean gender affirming care has LESS REGRET RATES THAN FUCKING CANCER SURGERY! so where are the concerned citizens asking for government intervention for those poor folks? instead we have picked literally the most vulnerabe, hated, and young population to pit in one of the centermost political battlegrounds for concern and virtue signaling clout, chirping about a group whose number one threat of death is suicide.

no hate to either of you. i’m just sad and upset and grateful to you for helping 1 person get educated.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 weeks ago

That went from "just asking questions" to "I'm going to ignore all of the science that you've presented me with and be an asshole" really quick.

I'm grateful to you for making it so obvious that it is okay to block you and never see another thing you post. Thank you.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 4 weeks ago

the cool thing is: research is being done and doctors and medical boards have the same concerns as you and are way smarter than both of us. gender affirming healthcare is treated with the same level of respect as every other healthcare field.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I feel like gender working should encompass figuring out if they do wish to transition and look at the reasons why one might be feeling that way, I always assumed it did, did it not?

To me, having no kind of care at all for trans people is just making it so that they can't get all of the best/accurate information that they need to figure out who they truly are. Which is shite. Everyone deserves that chance regardless of age.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

I feel like you misunderstood my point. Maybe on purpose, like apparently is tradition in these fields.

I never even implied "no care", I'm talking about puberty blockers and hormone treatment. These are irreversible changes. And without knowing, who they "truly are" you can't know, whether hormones are the right way to go. Damaging a trans kid by not treating is shite, but damaging a cis kid by treating it is also shite. And a doctor basically has to decide which of these risks to take - which is hard without proper data.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 weeks ago

If you read their reply again you would see that the effects of puberty blockers are mostly reversible.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

I didn't misinterpret what you said, I was extending from it and asking a question about the topic at the same time. I don't actually know what "gender affirming care" consists of, Hence my comment.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 weeks ago

Gender affirming care, for minors, is about 2 things.

Helping them figure out what is actually going on.
Stopping difficult or irreversible changes.

The first is exactly what you want. It's helping the children figure out exactly what they feel. It might also involve changing outward appearance (clothing etc) to see how it feels. Basically get their head straight with what they really want and feel.

The second is mostly puberty blockers. Puberty makes irreversible changes to the body. Blocking it doesn't do any harm. It's been used for decades to help with other conditions. When the blockers are removed, puberty proceeds normally. If the patient truly wants to transition, then an artificial puberty can be induced. This is far safer and more effective than surgery to fix things later.

No one is chopping up children.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 weeks ago

I'm gay. I wasn't sure when I was a teenager but I suspected. I never felt like I was the wrong sex.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children)

This law bars puberty blockers and his reasoning was based on reassingment surgery being a permanent choice.

Fuck this clown.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

They genuinely don’t care what gender affirming care even is. I’ve seen so many conservatives wailing about surgery on kids, when 99% of gender care is using the right name and pronouns plus hormone blockers. Like fuck, I wish they were just handing out surgeries! I’d really love a phalloplasty, but my insurance excludes any gender confirmation surgery for adults!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I think it's because the term 'gender affirming care' is explicitly chosen to be able to include surgery. If it's 99% about reversible hormone treatment, maybe that needs to be decoupled in order to make it more acceptable to the public

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

The problem is, trans people are very vocal about this, people don’t want to listen! I see so many comments about chopping dicks off - that’s not even how bottom surgery works.

Trying to “decouple” does nothing, because these people are going to be deliberately disingenuous. Notice how all often the news headline is “judge bans sex change surgery for youth” - it’s a lie, and it’s on purpose.

The reality is that gender affirming care is mostly hormones. Bottom surgery is prohibitively expensive and rarely covered by insurance. Rarely I’ve heard of teens having breast reductions, but it’s also 100% legal and accepted to get a cisgender 16 year old a breast enhancement.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 weeks ago

I don't think they are. I never read or hear anything about gender affirming care being limited to things that are reversible. It's a deliberate euphemism that can be used for anything. If the fight isn't about irreversible changes, why not separate the two so at least one can get accepted?

I'm personally against the breast enhancements for children that you mention as well, but in that case I think it's generally accepted as tattoo's are: with permission from the parents and not paid by the public.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 weeks ago

Wonder how many of those who oppose gender affirming surgery still support circumcision.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Oh man that reminds me when my friends and I would sneak off after gym and go around behind the basketball courts to affirm our gender. Good times, good times.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 weeks ago

We were young and easily fooled, my homie ate bull testicles to get more T and girl was chuggin' milk because Estrogen wasn't available otherwise. Did this every week or so, and look where we are now with our syringes, 100% entry drugs.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Wright County Circuit Court Judge Craig Carter wrote, “If we don’t let a 16-year-old buy a six-pack of beer and a pack of smokes

I am normally the last person to give a shit about overly informal language, but for fucks fucking sake Missouri, you couldn't find one person in your state with the intellectual capacity to realize that "If the state does not permit the purchase of alcohol nor tobacco by minors" maybe sounds a bit more serious? Like, the actual ruling itself is an offensive embarrassment, but I really can't get over the fact that it's written like a freakin facebook post.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Get ready for 4 years of government officials trying not to sound too 'elitist'

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

The English language will eventually deteriorate into a hybrid of hillbilly, valley girl, Inner City, and various grunts.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 weeks ago

As a Redneck with a less than intelligent dialect, I find this concept annoying. I can at least use big words, I am just bad at expressing my ideas. The last part aint even the dialect its the Autism.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 4 weeks ago

No more testosterone and bonner pills for the boomers.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

It's like they try really hard to miss the point of pretty much anything and everything. The analogy makes zero fucking sense. It's always just a bunch of twisting words and ideas to suit their backwards ass views.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Reed maintained the hospital treated many patients with mental health problems without comprehensive psychological evaluations; at trial, there was disagreement over whether a licensed therapist’s evaluation was enough to warrant gender-affirming care or if a psychologist or psychiatrist should be a requirement.

Therapist: spends hours establishing a relationship with the patients in order to gain a fundamental understanding of their issues.

Psychiatrist: Try these pills, idk.

All this establishes that mental healthcare in this country is a fucking joke.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 weeks ago

Well we'll just have to start celebrating trans kids coming of age like a sweet 16 or quinceanera except unbelievably gay. Sucks for the kids hard to not have access to puberty blockers and hrt (for older teens).

Unless the Democrats grow a spine and put up a fight (I'm looking at you Miss represent-all-Delawareans-except-the-trans-ones) the only thing we're going to be able to do is try to frame it as a rite of passage for trans kiddos.