[Outdated, please look at pinned post] Casual Conversation

You should definitely stop doing "more", also.

My last job tried to do this. They didn't even have enough desks for everyone. My entire team said "no thanks" and several people quit and they backtracked real fast. Now their stock is worth $2 when it used to be $40 a year ago lol

Just look for other jobs if you are standing your ground. Sometimes it takes a few losing a few people for them to realize they fucked up

This might not be an answer but my worked also requested us come in 2 days a week. So I ride my bike in around 11am and back home about 1pm. WFH the rest of the hours. I’m all about malicious compliance.

Once it is clearly proven you can work remotely, a commute to the office should be viewed as a site visit with the travel time being on the clock and travel costs reimbursed. If they do that, then yeah sure I'll listen to podcasts for an hour a day, anything else should be looked at as the pay cut it actually is. ((Travel time x hourly wage)+travel costs).

Time for a new job. There are plenty of remote jobs out there. You have good experience under your belt, so don't let them scare you into going into the office. Give them the bird and leave. Companies don't care about you, no matter how long you've been with them, and you shouldn't care either. And no, your team isn't your family, they're just people you work with. Don't be attached.

Things you never hear people say 'I'm looking forward to a long commute and spending all day in an office'.

Why is this even a discussion point?Working from home has been such a game changer. It's better for family life, it's better for the environment, it's efficient. Much of the anxiety around homeworking is the suspicion that people work less. The fact is, if your job sucks you are not doing it wherever it happens to be.

I feel this so much.

I was hired specifically on a WFH contract, so I don't think my company will be pushing for this. I'm okay with going to the office for the occasional big meeting and such, that's fine. It's fun even, meeting my colleagues in person.

However, due to a list of reasons working in an office for a longer period of time is not sustainable for me. It takes a toll both on my physical health and my mental health. I'm perfectly able to do most anything anyone else can do, but I cannot handle the deluge of social interaction that comes with working in an office and commuting.

Thus there are two options. Either I continue working from home, and I'll be a productive member of society. Or I'll go to office, and sooner or later become essentially disabled. I find the former much more enticing and fulfilling than the latter.

Its so awesome that people like you stand their ground. It makes a difference for all of us.

The upper management at my work is pushing for 3 days a week, but as of now it's completely optional. They keep acting like hybrid work is the best of both worlds, but I honestly feel like hybrid work is the worst of both worlds. Moving all of my equipment is so disruptive to my workflow. And now I get all of the drawbacks of needing to commute with the added drawback of needed to move all of my equipment every day that I go in. My laptop will die if it isn't plugged in for 2 hours, even when asleep, so if I just leave it in my backpack between work days that I go into the office, it will die and I will need to re-open all my applications, which is very time consuming with how slow my laptop is.

My manager decided that our team will have one weekly optional in-office day, so for those of us who want to come in, we can on the same day others want to. We all have lunch together on those days, and we usually leave early - around 3:30 PM. It has actually been really nice to see people's faces. It's just understood that we hardly get any actual work done those days, and it's more for """team building"""

If you used to meet people in person at the office, be prepared for a fight. But I personally think a reasonable company should allow you to go full remote. My company and did and my team is all on site.

That being said you're doing the right thing. Look for another job that will let you go full remote. You have the experience, now shop your talent around. Who knows you might also get a nice pay raise as well.

Good on you for quitting.

I would HIGHLY advise though, ensuring you have another job lined up before quitting. Lined up as in, you have the paperwork signed. It's common these days to go months without any work. I've been at it for a few years myself, and I'm a tech lead.

You have IT manager experience, my dude. You'll definitely find some remote work either back on the dev side or still in management. My company tried to pull this too but joke's on them because I moved 200 miles away from the office during Covid. The Economist recently published an article which cites a study that says working from home is not as productive as previously thought, because of the aggregate value that unplanned micro-interactions in the office can provide. Not sure I agree...

Good on you for standing your ground. Honestly if they were smart they would give you a raise when the time comes anyway but companies aren't really the smartest when it comes to retention so I hope you find exactly what you're looking for and better.

Good. The best action is to unionize, the next best action is to independently stand your ground. WFH is superior for workers when possible. We deserve it

There are two reasons they want people back in the office: control and real estate. Managers maintain power by controlling and manipulating people. That's harder to do if you're not present. Corporations have huge investments in real estate and don't want to see these drop in value. None of these reasons convey any benefit to the employee.

I'm on the otherside of the coin. I was remote like many during covid then recently took a job where I have a 40min commute 2 days a week. I wasn't happy about that to start and thought I wanted full time remote. I'm 4 months in now and I love it. To me it feels like the best of both worlds. My drive isn't a hard 40 min and I get through podcasts and calls to friends/family. I just bring my laptop and dock at home or office which is easy. It has been great seeing and meeting people. I try to structure my days so I get meetings in person and focus work done on WFH days. Not for everyone but some, like me, might be surprised that they like a blend more than they think.

Be extremely anxious. These companies are looking for those that bend the knee. It doesn't matter if you've been with them one year or fourty. If they find a reason to make you the example they will certainly do it especially if you're in the tech sector.

I applaud you standing your ground but my advice is to actually find a job or two that suites your situation and apply to it. Having options and offers is better.

You’ve made your case and stood your ground, and until it’s an official policy and nothing more than “guidance” you’ll probably be ok, honestly.

A few months back I was offered a promotion and a fancy new job title, with the caveat that I would need to move to another country. I countered with more or less the same argument as you, “I’ve been doing this from home for years and everyone I work with is remote anyways; I’m not moving” and was met with a “hmm…fair enough”.

I think you did it right. You politely explained that remote work is both amicable to your position and a significant benefit to your quality of life. In order to continue selling your labour to them, you require enough flexibility to accommodate this request. If the company specifically needs the position to be in-person then unfortunately it’s time to part ways.

As far as predicting the future— if you’ve been there 15 years you probably have a decent idea of both how valuable you are to the company, and how valuable the key decisionmakers see you. It’s likely not in their best interest to cut an employee with so much institutional knowledge out just for a policy shift. Unless you’re being paid inflated wages for your position compared with the industry, I’d hazard to guess you’re safe.

I'm glad you were able to recognize the quality of life imprisonment that work from home brought you and the impact it has on you and your family. With more and more ppl back in the office, WFH has shifted from a safety necessity to another 'perk' that companies can offer, like 401k matching or a 4/10 work schedule.

You are doing the right thing by standing your ground, you are indicating to them that they are in danger of losing talent if they do not continue to offer this competitive advantage to their employees, which should be a no-brainer with the work environment you described.

This should not preclude you from raises imo, and you are smart to be preparing your resume and looking for better opportunities. It is always smart to keep your options open. Good luck!

The last company that tried to pull that on me, I quit a few weeks after.

Easier if you are in a in-demand field, however, and of course, find another job before you resign.

I’ve been working from home for 12+ years and I can honestly say I wouldn’t want to work in an office. It would take a very very large number to make me consider it.

Commuting, having to buy “work clothes” etc, adds up. It’s time and money I don’t need to spend.

There was a brief period my boss tried to force us into the office. However anyone I would have to talk to in person was in our CT office (I was asked to go to the NYC office), so it was ultimately pointless and he dropped the issue.

I travel occasionally, for large projects or things that require in-person effort, but it’s not often. I’m currently on my second trip of 2023 and none expected the rest of the year.

(I started as one of two SysAdmins and I’m currently a manager of a SysAdmin team that’s spread out from California, Vegas, Florida and Poland.)

While I do agree face time with people occasionally is nice (we got everyone out on the project earlier this year except for Poland guy) and I find it helps remind you that the voice on the other side of the call is a human but if you have people who can deal with it, it’s not required. Only thing that we gained productivity-wise was a better sense of comradery going forward.

Good for you! Children are only children once, jobs will always be jobs. I definitely am not going back to the office & will freelance if I have to. (software)

You did the right thing my dude. If it makes you feel any better, today I left from work 30 minutes earlier to get my children from day care, a thing I have agreed with my manager to do during this month because I have no one else to do it and he agreed since I have a lot of overtime owed to me. The thing is that today the GM and the SM of the organization were here and I was in the meeting room with them. When the time came I just said, "well If you excuse me, I have to go get the kids", shaked hands with the GM and left. I remember everyone in the room looking at me the way you would imagine. Anyway. We have good unions in my country and it was all legal. I'm giving 100% everyday, not an inch higher. Apparently, I might not be promotion melaterial, but my kids are on top of everything else and worth every second I can spare for them.

They are only hurting themselves. Remote workers are more productive and they are going to lose you to a remote company. The only people wanting to go back are those who waste time at the water cooler and had no life of their own.

Fuck ya, preach it. I'm in the same boat but not quite yet being forced to go back. But if I go back... I'll walk lol. The time is worth so much to me.

Pretty much the only reason I'm staying in the job I have now is that they let me work from home 15 hours a week. If I found a job that let me work at home more than that, I'd take it.

Power to you! Definitely agree with standing your ground and keeping your options open. If they value you, they’ll make exceptions. If not, you probably don’t want to work there anymore.

I understand the anxiety but based on your experience you won't have any trouble finding a fully remote job, probably that pays more.

I've been mostly to fully remote since 2009 and the time I've had with my kids is worth more than anything I could have found in an office. Best of luck in your search!

Good for you mate

First of all, I think there’s absolutely no reason to be worried, you‘re a developer at manager level, I think you have nothing to fear about on the job market. There are literally thousands of companies around the globe who want just you in their team no matter where you work from. There are so many jobs you can do 100% remote, so you’ll find just what you want in no time. If a company isn‘t developed enough in the year 2023 to let people work from home while their whole team is spread around the world then f them.

I not only believe that it‘s just an excuse from you, I am convinced that your productivity will go down if you had to go back to the office. Your reasons totally make sense, if they seriously question your arguments I think it’s ok to question yourself if those are people you share the same values with and want to keep on working with.

It‘s also important to show companies that their employees is all they have and they are the ones who should provide them a comfortable and enjoyable environment to work in, otherwise people will leave sooner or later.

Covid should have shown us that (mental) health and time for yourself and your loved ones is top priority in life so your move was the only logical decision. Additionally you proved you‘re a woman or a man of integrity and honestly you have my full respect.

Enjoy the time with your family and in the worst case you will find an employer soon that takes you with a hand kiss and you‘ll be happy then.

Keep us up to date please and enjoy your day! 🌞