this post was submitted on 16 Jan 2024
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131
‘It’s difficult to survive’: China’s LGBTQ+ advocates face jail and forced confession (www.theguardian.com)
submitted 9 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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In recent years, China’s LGBTQ+ community has been swept up in the Chinese Communist party’s broader crackdown on civil society and freedom of expression. In May 2023, a well known LGBTQ+ advocacy group in Beijing announced it was closing due to “unavoidable” circumstances. Last February, two university students filed a lawsuit against the education ministry after they were punished for distributing rainbow flags on campus.

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (5 children)

Yeah Naomi Wu was also arrested and "silcenced" last year (she's no longer allowed to publish anything even stuff not critical of the CCP). https://skepchick.org/2023/08/maker-naomi-wu-is-silenced-by-chinese-authorities-and-why-i-blame-elon-musk/

She is also feminist and lesbian and has an Uyghur girlfriend, which was blatantly published by Vice after promises not to do so, which suddenly put her on the radar 😭 It's a shame because I have big respect for her and her content.

I don't really understand why China is so against LGBTQ+, I don't think they have any religious basis for this. But I assume it has a lot to do with their demography crisis (rapidly falling birth numbers). Even though it seems counterproductive to me, them being against LGBTQ+ does not really make it disappear, I think facilitating IVF for happy LGBT couples to raise loved children would be more productive. But anyway...

[–] [email protected] 31 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I don't think they have any religious basis for this.

The same applies to Russia. You can say something similar about ultra conservative Catholics, since the Pope has called for tolerance. Yet, they would rather denounce the Pope than tolerate LGBTQ+.

The key idea is that bigotry is not driven by religious affiliation, but rather by authoritarian attitudes. That's what's common between China, Russia and the ultra conservatives in the US. Tolerance of LGBTQ indicates freedom and liberalism in some sense. And both are challenges to the stakeholders of authoritarianism. They want a world where people live within the framework they dictate - and thus the bigotry.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

The same applies to Russia.

Not really. Russia has a strong orthodox influence. They suppressed it during the soviet times but it is back in full force.

You can say something similar about ultra conservative Catholics, since the Pope has called for tolerance. Yet, they would rather denounce the Pope than tolerate LGBTQ+.

That's a small splinter group though. Most catholics are pretty open. Even Ireland allowed gay marriage now by popular vote.

The key idea is that bigotry is not driven by religious affiliation, but rather by authoritarian attitudes. That’s what’s common between China, Russia and the ultra conservatives in the US. Tolerance of LGBTQ indicates freedom and liberalism in some sense. And both are challenges to the stakeholders of authoritarianism. They want a world where people live within the framework they dictate - and thus the bigotry.

Aha that does make sense. The LGBTQ movement is indeed very progressive and liberal. I do think there is often a religous component as well (though that seems to be missing in China) but this sounds like a good explanation.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Nooooo! Not Naomi!

I don't really follow her content, but I love her existence and all her efforts towards education and awareness on many topics.

I hope she's able to find freedom again somehow.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Well she is in freedom, she was released. She's just not free to publish. So she is well but not able to do what she loved.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I wouldn't call it freedom. If she's treated like other "security threats" within China, then she does not have freedom to travel. She's likely limited to her city at most, perhaps even just a small area within and has to regularly report to local police. Think of it like probation for people convicted of actual crimes in the West, except without court order, for an unlimited amount of time and with the constant threat of being tortured/disappeared looming over her head. If Xi ever feels like tightening the thumb screws on the Chinese people even further, she'd probably feel the effects before many others. All of this comes with social consequences, as many friends and business partners will be scared away.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago

So... Just like probation?

[–] LiveLM 13 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The Naomi situation is ridiculous. Such a nice person with amazing stories to tell and things to do being swept under the rug like it's nothing

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago

Yes and she was not overly critical at all. Instead she focused mainly on her tech.

I really miss her great content 😢 And her personality.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I was curious about this as I read a few BL Manhua. It was pretty well accepted since at least the Han dynasty, and has been argued that westernisation during the Qing dynasty is what introduced the opposition towards it. I mainly just read about it on this Wikipedia page so I could also be completely wrong ^ - ^ `

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago

Being in the infosec space and seeing her blow up back in 2017-2019, I'm shocked it took the CCP this long to come down on her. She always kept any political criticism at arm's length, but her not being the Beijing-approved image of femininity was always going to make her a target in Xi's China.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Just two more pieces for those interested.

China's Pioneering Gay Rights Group Halts Operations Under 'Force Majeure' (May 2023)

The 15-year-old Beijing LGBT Center, one of the pioneers of the "different sexual orientation movement" in China, announced this week that it had terminated its operations without explanation.

Analysts said the closure of the well-known rights center was seen as inevitable and a reflection of the increasingly repressive political environment in China under Xi Jinping.

[...] In 2019, Taiwan's Legislative Yuan passed the Special Act on Same-Sex Marriage, becoming the first country in Asia to allow same-sex marriage, but the regulations stipulated that married same-sex couples could adopt only children biologically related to one of the partners [...] Taiwan is now leading Asia in same-sex marriage legislation.

The Chinese government claims LGBTQ+ people are protected from discrimination. Our interviews with 26 activists tell another story (October 2023)

The evidence suggests LGBTQ+ activists in China have had a particularly tough time since President Xi Jinping took office in 2013. The effects of targeting have spiralled in the past few years, reflected in the abrupt closure of the Shanghai Pride in 2020, and the 2021 shutdown of LGBT Rights Advocacy China – an organisation that held law-based campaigns.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Ironically this may serve to further them from their goals regarding Taiwan. The further they become politically and socially, the more difficult assimilation becomes. I think in 25 years it won’t be possible anymore. By then we are likely to see not an event like Hong Kong, but outright war before such a thing occurs. Geographically, any such imposition would appear as an invasion. That’s why we see China doing their best to meddle with their elections. Assuming TSMC maintains its relevance, and they gain recognition from some western powers. Not that far off if you can believe it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

So with Intel expanding processor manufacturing operations in the US (Outside Columbus Ohio, for example) to avoid the TSMC supply chain issues faced over the last few years, couldn’t that actually hurt Taiwan, as the USA will just refuse to be involved if their national interests aren’t in jeopardy?

I know that TSMC supplies globally, but what if USA just suddenly decided that the defensive “juice” just wasn’t worth the proverbial squeeze?

TLDR: US decides “Fuck it, we can produce our own processors now, you’re on your own”. Is that a realistic possibility?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Absolutely, however playing catchup in the semiconductor space is far easier said than done. Even intel gave up and started using TSMC to lay their newer nodes. So long as TSMC maintains its R&D lead they have that trump card.

I think you’re onto something there though. There has been a push in the US to onshore chip manufacturing and the situation with Taiwan is a huge motivator.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago

Oh China, the "pro LGBTQ+" instance hexbear favourite dictatorship.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Not that I am OK with how China is dealing with these things, but this is not exactly an LGBTQ+ issue. As per the article, the reasons for the arrests are kidnapping, not any law against being gay. In fact, China has essentially civil unions for gay people who want to be in a recognized relationship.

Ironically, in this case, it's not a government problem but a societal one. The older generation is very conservative. They set the tone for a lot of censorship. So while your free to be gay or whatever, you can't talk about it or make media about it. This is to not offend the older generation.

The older generation can inflict immense damage on their children as the article points out. If you disobey your elders like your parents, the police will tend to favor the elders as we see in this article.

As a cultural issue, this has kind of been the case since Confucius times. China is kind of famous for over controlling and overbearing parents. And in this case, the government backs them even if the official policy is to let them be. For example in 2017 China ruled that gay conversion camps illegal. Yet the problem still persists in 2019.

Of course as per usual, when the government doesn't know what to do, it tries to censor everything and hopes it goes away on its own.

Like I said, not OK with it, but we should all be aware what it is and be aware of biased reporting from the news.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Did you read the article beyond the first paragraph? ONE case was related to a 'kidnapping' accusation. The rest of the examples have been about systematic persecution of LGBT related parties

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yes I did. Here's a few quotes from that article.

While China has a law against domestic violence, it fails to adequately protect victims, especially LGBTQ+ people, say advocates, with crimes often dismissed as family affairs

And

Li Tingting (left) and Teresa at their wedding reception in Beijing, China, July 2015. Li, 25, a prominent rights activist announced their marriage in an effort to push for LGBTQ rights in China

As well as it gives several examples of abusive families who manipulate the law to attack those who help their children. Like the trans woman who tried to protect the run away trans woman.

I said it's not good. But it's not the government pushing this. It straight says so in the article in the quotes I'm posting.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

As per the article, the reasons for the arrests are kidnapping

As I pointed out, kidnapping is a side issue, and unrelated to the majority of the cases.

this is not exactly an LGBTQ+ issue.

But it’s not the government pushing this.

From the article:

In recent years, China’s LGBTQ+ community has been swept up in the Chinese Communist party’s broader crackdown on civil society and freedom of expression. In May 2023, a well known LGBTQ+ advocacy group in Beijing announced it was closing due to “unavoidable” circumstances. Last February, two university students filed a lawsuit against the education ministry after they were punished for distributing rainbow flags on campus.

In 2021, the founder of another group, LGBT Rights Advocacy China, was detained and released on condition that he close the organisation, which shuttered shortly after. That year, dozens of social media accounts associated with university campus LGBTQ+ movements were also shut without warning. Shanghai Pride, the country’s longest-running celebration for sexual minorities, ended in 2020.

How is this not directly caused by the govt, and 'not exactly an LGBTQ+ issue'?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I've already talked about it. When China doesn't know what to do they censor everyone. But there are still gay bars and gay pride has gone into dance clubs.

Heres a guide on where to go.

https://www.travelgay.com/beijing-gay-bars-and-clubs

Heck, they censored one of their most popular videos games genshin impact because it was too sexy. They censor straight sex too. In fact you could argue if they didn't censor gay pride it would be preferential treatment.

Hell your quote literally says it.

Chinese Communist party’s broader crackdown on civil society and freedom of expression.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Ok, so it's semantics.

Look, if the LGBT population is being persecuted for being LGBT, that makes it an LGBT issue. If others are being affected as well, that means there are multiple, and broader issues, but that doesn't make it any less an issue for the LGBT population. And it is very much being pushed by the govt.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Everyone is getting prosecuted equally so no it's not an LGBTQ issue anymore than breathing is an LGBTQ issue.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

What is with that stance?

'They're being persecuted for being LGBT, but others are being persecuted as well for unrelated reasons, so it's not an LGBT issue'.

If you're being persecuted for being LGBT, it's an LGBT issue! It doesn't matter who else is being persecuted, it's not mutually exclusive!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Again it's not about LGBTQ. It's anything to do with dressing different or talking about sex. That's why boy love films are so popular in China. They dress them in fancy traditional garb and have sexual tension but no kissing or sex. Hell some of them got so popular they got onto Netflix.

Here's the main Chinese propaganda mouth piece promoting it.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1168331.shtml

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

right, but you do understand that these things are interrelated. not all anti-LGBT policies explicitly target only LGBT people. if you restrict dressing "differently" and talking about sex, the people who dress differently or have different kinds of sex (queer people) are systemically disadvantaged when compared to straight and cis people. and if there's bigotry in your society, there's no guarantee that these restrictive policies are going to be applied to everybody equally.

like, bathroom bills don't have to mention trans people to target trans people exclusively, because very few other groups of people have the motivation to choose a bathroom that doesn't align with their assigned sex at birth. if you restrict a behavior queer people are statistically highly likely to engage in, the fact that it could also impact other groups doesn't make it not a queer issue.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yes, but they are applying it equally. They are banning all mentions of sex, not just queer sex. They are censoring anything that shows too much skin, not just queer dressing. This is why I pointed out them censoring a video game made for kids. Basically they said a leotard was too revealing.

The problem isn't the enforcement. The problem is the reporting. As society there reports against the LGBTQ more than other ones. Again, that's not the government doing anything unequal or targeting. Which is why I said it's not exactly an LGBTQ issue. It becomes one because of the older conservatives.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

look, if the realities of a system or policy are statistically more likely to target queer people, it is a queer issue lol. restrictions on discussing sex publicly disproportionately affect those who are sexual minorities, because all "legitimate" channels for learning about sex are usually targeted for heterosexual couplings. there's a reason why queer people have a vested interest in sex education. modesty laws are also more oppressive for queer people by their nature.

anything that regulates how people dress also regulates gender expression, because clothing in most of the world is gendered. there are things that women wear that men can't, things that are "too much skin" for women and not men. if you legislate what people can wear, you have a very good tool for targeting queer folks, even if it theoretically could also be used to target other kinds of self-expression. you can't make a modesty law that isn't also anti-queer by extension, because modesty as a concept is defined by patriarchy, heteronormativity, and cisnormativity.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Yup, most of the world has gendered clothing. But this is China, where for decades they rejected that. Their school uniforms still rejects gendered clothing.

https://www.koreaboo.com/stories/chinese-school-uniforms-korean-students-jealous/

It's only relatively recently come back from Western fashion.

They're literally trying to fight against what your talking about to such a degree that even your normal concept of gendered clothing is different. And I know that's hard to wrap your head around, but that's exactly why I'm saying, it's not exactly what you think.

*Edit: Let's look at this from another angle. China has been trying to enforce gender neutral ideas for some time, like gender neutral clothing. All this push for gender equality has lead China to become the home to the most female billionaires in the world.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trends/wu-yajun-china-has-two-thirds-of-worlds-self-made-women-billionaires-meet-the-richest-8296901.html

The Chinese government is 25% female.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/239113/sshare-of-women-in-chinese-national-parliament/

So it's in China's position that while not great now, by constantly pushing gender neutral laws and trying to prevent sex being displayed in public, they'll create equality.

As you point out though, that often leads to oppression and other terrible side effects.

I'm saying, I do not believe i personally understand the situation enough to make a judgement call. I just want people to be aware of what's actually happening and not that it's some kind of governmental anti-LGBTQ+ push. It's China trying to be China for better or worse.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago

🤖 I'm a bot that provides automatic summaries for articles:

Click here to see the summaryThe failed rescue attempt is one of more than 10 similar cases Mei knows of where advocates have been arrested and questioned by police since she joined an informal network providing support to the LGBTQ+ community some years ago.

In recent years, China’s LGBTQ+ community has been swept up in the Chinese Communist party’s broader crackdown on civil society and freedom of expression.

In 2021, the founder of another group, LGBT Rights Advocacy China, was detained and released on condition that he close the organisation, which shuttered shortly after.

“In China, there is systematic persecution,” says Fangqing*, 23, a gender-fluid advocate who, before going into exile overseas, was pressed by police to admit to selling harmful drugs after attempting to help a victim of domestic violence.

While China has a law against domestic violence, it fails to adequately protect victims, especially LGBTQ+ people, say advocates, with crimes often dismissed as family affairs.

Those who help victims escape violence can be arrested and made to confess to charges such as illegally selling drugs, kidnapping or even “group licentiousness”, says Fangqing.

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