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I like cars but… (lemmy.ca)

submitted 5 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I can’t help but think that cars (EV included) just aren’t the answer. I feel like bikes aren’t the answer either. I feel like the metro and high speed rail are.

Most people don’t drive because they like driving (US), most people drive because they have to. And that sucks. You shouldn’t feel like you’re forced to drive. Because that’s auto insurance and auto registration that you have to pay.

You can’t eliminate roads altogether. You need at least one or two lanes for fire trucks, ambulances, garbage trucks, etc. but you can create pockets of no car zones.

People like me who like cars, should be able to have places we store our cars. We should have places where we can explore the limits of our cars instead of driving through traffic. But that should be a strictly extracurricular activity.

In the no car pockets, you should be able to walk to a grocery store, hardware store, that has what you need. You should be able to have mixed zoning. Single family units shouldn’t be the norm. If I own a car but it’s not my dedicated form of transportation, I can buy a cooler car and I don’t need a garage next to where I live to store it. I can store it outside no car pockets so that I can take public transport to my car and then take my car to the track.

Yes, it’ll take awhile to get there but why aren’t we doing more to that end? Am I too idealistic?

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[-] [email protected] 19 points 5 months ago

Rail doesn't carry me to my doorstep. Bike does!

The ultimate solution is a combination of all mobility options, without subsidized personal cars.

People will get the fuck out of their cars real quick if they had to pay the real price for it. Instantly, if long and short distance rail is easily accessible and micro-mobility is available generally.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

Why not walk the last mile?

But being able to bike is nice. I just feel like, like cars, we shouldn’t force a bike or car driven society. They should be a choice

[-] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

Walking is a micro-mobility. I apologize if it didn't come across clearly, but my comment was exactly about choice.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I think the best possible form of transportation to design our cities around is feet. It's extremely feasible to build neighborhoods where 90% of what you need to live and work is within a 10-20 minute walk. Density and mixed use are key.

Then I honestly don't think it matters that much how people get between said neighborhoods. Just by prioritizing walkability we would get rid of 90% of trips.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

There are newer developments in suburban BC, that have done the village model. storefronts on bottom, and townhomes, or low highrise above. everything you need for daily existance is in the plaza below. I had culture shock in chicago, where the only way across road from hotel to restaurants was by car. No sidewalks, no pedestrian crossing. Just make a run for it and don't fall in the ditch either side of roadway

[-] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

That development style is awesome. It's hard to find outside of older, more run down neighborhoods in most cities.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

The trouble with walkability is variety. I get in my car, I can reach shopping malls, clothing stores, restaurants of practically any cuisine, and the post office to send a letter.

Years ago I lived in a major city on the east coast with decent public transit and high "walkability index" ratings. I could walk to a bodega, three pubs, two pizza places, a chinese restaurant, an organic grocery store, and the gym. I biked to work and to school, and could take public transit to the regional rails to get out of the city if needed.

I still needed a car.

You can't carry a week's worth of groceries for a family on a bike, and certainly not when it's raining.

Public transit takes two or three times as much time compared to driving point to point. Walking could turn a 20 minute errand into a full day adventure. And if I need a specialty store, or to take my kids to the doctor, I'm not waiting around for a bus that may be an hour behind schedule.

The car should be the backup. There should be other options, more favorable options. Cheaper, cleaner, faster for when you just need to get somewhere. Walking is only a replacement when you live near everywhere you ever need to go and you have enough money to just have everything at your fingertips.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

Years ago I lived in a major city on the east coast with decent public transit and high "walkability index" ratings. I could walk to a bodega, three pubs, two pizza places, a chinese restaurant, an organic grocery store, and the gym. I biked to work and to school, and could take public transit to the regional rails to get out of the city if needed.

I still needed a car.

What on Earth for? I honestly can't think of a reason why you would need a car in a situation like that. I live in a very walkable neighborhood but with considerably less amenities and I get by just fine without a car or a bike.

Public transit takes two or three times as much time compared to driving point to point.

No it does not. That's only true if cities invest all of their transportation budget into car-centric infrastructure. Public transit is way more efficient.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

That's pretty arrogant to tell me the reality I lived is a lie. You say you can't think of any reasons when I just gave you a whole bunch of reasons. How should I interpret that?

Not that it matters, this isn't an opinion. I mean, you could go to google maps right now and see the difference.

Here was one of my commutes to work.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Aspen+Street+%26+Haverford+Avenue,+Philadelphia,+PA/Benjamin+Franklin+High+School,+550+N+Broad+St,+Philadelphia,+PA+19130/@39.9644239,-75.1921844,13z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x89c6c6e0603a75e7:0x60419d67af2d983e!1m2!1m1!1s0x89c6c7d3da35c16f:0x4d340bce9140c1f!3e0

Right now, 16 minutes by car and 32 minutes by public transit.

Here's a trip to Ikea.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/IKEA,+South+Christopher+Columbus+Boulevard,+Philadelphia,+PA/Benjamin+Franklin+High+School,+550+N+Broad+St,+Philadelphia,+PA+19130/@39.9372884,-75.1514966,13z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x89c6c8b2d85cab5d:0x6311fc151459e887!1m2!1m1!1s0x89c6c7d3da35c16f:0x4d340bce9140c1f!3e0

14 vs 35 minutes, but try carrying a couch home on the bus.

Here's another work commute.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/South+12th+Street+%26+Reed+Street,+Philadelphia,+PA/E+Erie+Ave,+Philadelphia,+PA/@39.9456148,-75.1338933,13z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x89c6c61a450a43cd:0xa68e23054f88f593!1m2!1m1!1s0x89c6b7c45c9a0245:0xcd9fb0b8c6c17e09!3e0

Currently 26 vs 48 minutes.

Keep in mind, all of those public transit numbers assume you catch the next bus, and it's on time. I haven't lived in the city for almost 20 years, but I don't believe that the transit has gotten that much more reliable.

And Septa is pretty good as far as transit systems go.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

That's not an actually good public transit system. Decent for North America maybe but trash compared to other countries.

Try telling a Manhattanite or someone from a Japanese city that cars are inherently 3x faster for point-to-point trips compared to transit.

Edit: also, why were you buying a week's worth of groceries at a time? I just walk to the bodega as I run out of stuff because it's close enough. It takes a few minutes. Sorry you couldn't see your way out of needing a car but I can pretty much guarantee based on the neighborhood you've described that you could have gotten by without one.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Ah, no true Scotsman it is, then.

So no public transit counts unless it's Manhattan or Japanese? Have you driven in Manhattan? A pogo stick would be faster than driving.

The USA is the country that needs public transit the most. We have 9 cars for every 10 people, and 300 million cars on the road. China has more cars, but only 2.2 cars per 10 people. No other country has more than 100 million cars, and no country with more than 100,000 cars has more cars per capita.

So when we're talking about replacing cars, you cannot simply ignore the entire USA because we haven't developed as much infrastructure as Manhattan.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

We want to replace cars AND build actual good infrastructure. The current system heavily favors cars so of course they're more convenient in some ways. In a more balanced and sustainable system the advantages cars have would significantly decrease.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

Where did you get the impression that I was talking about "replacing" cars? I said we should replace the urban design approach itself to one which prioritizes walkability over cars. Driving a car rarely be the most practical way of getting from point A to B, but unfortunately it is in most of North America.

What I was responding to was your suggestions that no amount of transit infrastructure or walkability can be good enough to make it so people don't still need a car, and that car travel is inherently more efficient for getting around.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

Ikea delivers. And where I'm at, with traffic, the bus or train sometimes becomes a quicker option due to priority lane for busses, and not dealing with parking

[-] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

Genuinely curious: why do you need a weeks worth of groceries? From living in a big city, albeit in Asia, the benefit of living close to the market is that I can just go pickup what I need for the next few days, and then come back later for the rest.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

A few reasons, but the big one is time. It takes less time to shop once a week than it takes to go every few days.

It also lets me save money by shopping in bulk for nonperishable items. I can throw 24 rolls of toilet paper in the trunk of my car, or if there is a sale on frozen vegetables I can stock up.

The other reason is personal, meaning it doesn't apply to everybody, but I have psoriatic arthritis. It comes and goes, but right now I can't walk to the mailbox at the end of my driveway without two tylenol and my cane. Thankfully, I'm not using a wheelchair right now, but using a cane on the bus is no picnic, and it means I have to carry everything with my bad shoulder. With my wife, two kids, and a dog, even a two day shopping trip is probably more than I could carry.

But that's why my wife does most of the shopping lately. Time is still the number one reason.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

A metro cannot reach all the population of a city, electric bikes + metro can.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

You can walk anywhere you can bike

[-] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Me walking 2 hours to the office instead of biking for 30 minutes because it's technically possible 🚶‍♂️.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

If the metro is planned correctly, you it should then 2 hours to 15 minutes.

And nobody is saying you CANT bike. But, like cars, no one should be forced to bike

[-] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

I expect what will eventually happen is self drive cars will make owning cars pointless.

If you need a car, you'll summon it Uber style on your phone or your watch, or schedule regularly scheduled pick up and drop off times.

The car shows up, picks you up, takes you to your destination.

Even in cases where people want to own their own cars, they can just drive themselves home when not in use and return when summoned.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

The streets are going tp be full of empty self driving cars, because uber and the competitors are going to flood the streets of cars to be sure they're always one ready for their clients.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

I feel like their business models are dependent on that happening.

Anytime you want a ride you have it within a minute and it'll take you down the block or across the country nonstop. Safer than a human driver for multiple reasons.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

This could be achieved just as easily with a good mix of high frequency transit options, most Americans are just so used to the car that a 5 minute walk is a deal breaker.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

A five minute walk is a dealbreaker if you're carrying groceries for your family. God forbid you have to use a laundromat.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

When people have grocery shopping at 5min walking people go to the grocery when needed, walking pass from work or school, every couple of days to buy what they need for a couple of days. Going to Walmart to buy a 300 toilet paper rolls package is a car dependence symptom.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYHTzqHIngk

[-] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

Or a "family of four" syndrome.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

I grew up in a family of 5, in a walking neighborhood without a car and didn't starved to death. I guess me and my friends from our neighborhood should be special.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

What’s the point of maintaining the roads for self driving cars when public transport can eliminate most of that cost?

[-] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

Public transportation still needs maintained roads...

[-] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

Only if you’re including trolleys and buses?

Otherwise you maintain enough for infrastructure and support

[-] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

https://www.youtube.com/@RMTransit is a channel about using and designing public transit system. He looks at what works and doesn't work in different systems.
Interesting videos

[-] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

Walking, bikes and various forms of public/mass transit are all good, but are still not sufficient in a North American environment.

Weather sucks. From ankle deep snow that melts to slush and then freezes to be extremely uneven and slippery makes walking unpleasant to dangerous. As much as my city tries to keep up, there is only so much time and funds to clear snow.
Not everyone is fully able bodied. I'll skip the obvious mobility impaired that people can identify by sight, but include those who look fully able, but for various reasons cannot. ie people with middle ear issues who cannot ride a bike due to lack of balance, or a medical issue where they can do a 30-40 minute walk, but takes them hours to recover.
Not everything CAN be within a 15-20 minute walk! There are lots on specialty and mom & pop stores that I go to that require longer range transport.
If you have kids, and they are involved in extracurricular activities, especially sports, you need a vehicle to get them to and from their destination.
Whatever city you live in is different than someone else's. From city design, availability and safety of public transit, environment etc. Should every city aspire to be more friendly to those without a car, sure. But the reality is that most cities have spent the last 50 years being built around a car. Making changes to small pockets to be walk-able is a good start, but the reality is that it will be decades before any major overall change would be feasible. Until then we should also look to minimize the environmental impact of cars and EVs are a good start to that.

this post was submitted on 03 Feb 2024

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