spaduf

This is exactly the issue. The bar was set so low. He was barely able to put together a coherent response to the infanticide claims, which was something even the lowest of information voters know is a lie. He let Trump walk all over him on immigration even though Biden put together a "bipartisan" plan that was just a Republican wishlist. If Biden had articulated any of that we'd probably be having a different conversion.

Stopping out seems to be an industry term that refers to semi-quitting school with an intent to return.

What does harassment mean in this context?

Why tf would you associate with men who would punish you if you don't "live up to a masculine ideal"?

It's not like men are ever given an explicit choice. Very frequently this means older male relatives.

My problem with this is these new qualities are just as likely to be used to build a toxic hierarchy. The problem seems to me to be not just the qualities themselves but the competitive nature that is more or less beaten into boys at a young age.

I think we're splitting hairs here. They don't want to because they feel like they can't do so without repurcussions.

This is absolutely true and I'm always surprised there isn't more acknowledgement in progressive women's circles. Simple polling shows that roughly a third of women hold all men to these standards but there are significantly more who exclusively apply it to potential partners (speaking from a very US-centric perspective).

The honest solution is that women who think this way are simply not good partners, and should be avoided to whatever degree is possible.

Well it's entirely dependent on their social circle, right? They're the ones who would or would not enforce these norms.

Ruined?

This is by design and most people fell for it entirely. Even the second highest content in this thread is carrying water for big oil.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

Toxic man: oh guess I am just gunna keep doing what I am doing if you aren’t going to tell me what to do.

The reason this comes up is that masculinity is largely based around externally conferred social status. You have to constantly be doing something to maintain an image of masculinity. Often this means some sort of social or physical violence in the right time or place (beat up the mugger to defend your partner, call out your boss when you're being treated unfairly, put rival men in their place). Just as frequently, however, it is the expectation of a certain amount of self sacrifice (paying for meals, military service). What they don't understand is how anyone can expect them to maintain their social status when they are avoiding this role that they have been explicitly shown that there will be consequences if they fail to meet. The answer is simple: once you're out of the masculinity rat race, you're out. By refusing to take part in the hierarchy of dominance you will eventually be subject to a more general and, frankly, human set of standards.

The only problem is that all of these pressures are external in the first place and this whole dynamic creates strong social gender boundaries. It is very easy for a lot of men to look at their social circles and see exclusively people who punish them for a failure to live up to a masculine ideal.

Seems like an essential feature to me. Curious to see if it'll be in the beta.